New to the game...

Sail Boats 15' and up. Please include the boat type in your question.
fallguy1000
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Re: New to the game...

Post by fallguy1000 »

Man has harnessed solar power for boats via the wind for a very long time.

Using solar pv panels has obvious problems versus wind.

Clouds, sun angles, battery life and maintenance, etc.

I have great respect for the boat you copied, but...that boat appears to have high windage for the power displayed. This translates to a boat with limited seagoing capabilities. I could be wrong, but I'd not want to go out in bluewater without a better understanding.

I find pv power to be an exceptional means for onboard accessories; less for propulsion.
My boat build is here -------->

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altruistic
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Re: New to the game...

Post by altruistic »

Thanks Narfi for your reply.

My expectations would be overall, to travel slowly (6 knots or less) and small distances. As you say, it all depends on efficiency of solar array and electric motors and power losses, as to amount of travel. I would be thinking the boat more along the lines of 'houseboat' rather than bluewater, ocean crossing, hurricane condition boat. The greatest journey it would make in the first couple of years would be across the English Channel, from where I could hug the French, Portuguese and Spanish coastline, before making my way into the Mediterranean and exploring that region. After a couple of years doing that I think I would have gathered enough data as to what the boat was capable of. If then a trip to the Canary Islands, then the Azores and onto the West Indies seemed doable (in the right season) then that would year three. From there, onto Florida and North and South America in year four and five....who knows. Although a catamaran would be the more tried and tested way forward, the mooring fees and haul out costs put me off this setup, although it may be a more stable solution once the weather takes an unexpected turn.
I was running some 'napkin' calculations myself for weight of panels and batteries. Panels weigh about 20kg for 350W, so for 8kW = 500kg
Lithium batteries are about 10Kg per 1kW, so 50kW = 500kg. The weight of electric motors (say 48V, 11kW each) may be 150kg each.
Weight of deck structure I'm not sure. What would anyone suggest?
How would I calculate the load-bearing weight of a 36ft x 10.5ft hull? Would it depend on the material that the hull is made from?

altruistic
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Re: New to the game...

Post by altruistic »

fallguy1000 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:29 pm Clouds, sun angles, battery life and maintenance, etc.

I have great respect for the boat you copied, but...that boat appears to have high windage for the power displayed. This translates to a boat with limited seagoing capabilities.
Thanks for the reply fall guy.
By 'windage', do you mean the effect of the wind on the height of the boat out of the water?
My own experience of solar is that thick cloud has much more effect on solar harvesting than anything else. Also, to make better use of the efficiency of this boat, hugging the equator (plus or minus 30 degrees) may be a better option. As I've grown older, the colder climes are less appealing anyway.

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Re: New to the game...

Post by Jaysen »

If you want a true “electric only” vessel you are in for some disappointment.
1. The products are expensive.
2. The products are fragile.
3. Battery technology sucks.

You can build a full electric vessel if you have the money. The series I’m still hoping to be involved in is full E. The transat race showed a few issues with the budgets not allowing all racers to afford the efficient gear. You’d be better off planning an on board diesel generator for “emergency” power than expecting to be exclusively wind/solar powered.

For the record, the live aboard E-boat that never plugs in, is a bit of a dream for me. All the folks claiming to have achieved this status, that I researched, still plug into the grid frequently. Short of racing sailboats (vendee glove had a few) no one is demonstrating a real, practical, working example.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

altruistic
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Re: New to the game...

Post by altruistic »

Thanks for the reply Jaysen. I wondered whether you are up on lithium battery technology? If Elon Musk can make it work in a Tesla, surely it can happen in a boat? I know there will be limitations (slow, limited range, limited sailing capabilities) but is it really not feasible in a 'houseboat' type scenario?

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Re: New to the game...

Post by Jaysen »

I’m very familiar with it. Have you looked at the reality of long term management of LiPO/LiFe? You will need to have larger banks to account for cell death as well as spares on board to handle unit death. Musk and crew account for this via excessive capacity in the battery bank that has software access control (only brought into service to replace dead cells).

Make sure you understand the cost of all this. I’ve watched people throw serious money at this idea in the last couple years (I may have been one of them) only to see the projects fail to meet the use case. By a lot.

Good luck.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

altruistic
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Re: New to the game...

Post by altruistic »

Thanks Jaysen for your honesty. There is no substitute for experience and since you've tried this type of thing already, I will seriously take on board your comments. I haven't got limitless funds so need to plan accordingly. Cheers, Al

altruistic
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Re: New to the game...

Post by altruistic »

OK, after another month of looking at various options I've come to this conclusion.
I want to live on a boat for one main reason.
I do not want to die without having experienced more journeys, adventures, cultures, places and people.

I've looked at a whole load of sailing videos this month and the things I want from a boat are:
1. Security. I don't want it to sink.
2. Ease of use. I'm not particularly bothered about it being powered by motor.
3. Creature comforts. I want the comforts of modern day living.
4. I want to ideally be able to cross oceans, but great journeys always begin with a single step. I don't mind learning to walk before I can run.
5. I see our societies becoming forced to accept the green agenda and carbon tax, therefore the quicker we adopt this mindset, maybe the better. if we want to be able to travel independently.

For these reasons, the solar boat idea is back on the agenda. I'm almost sixty and though in reasonable shape, I'm not sure how my body will now shape up to the physical demands of a sailing vessel, say in the next two decades. A steel boat seems to fit point 1. above the best and could be adapted to provide the necessary canopy. I've been looking at ELCO electric motors along with others. Although expensive, the EP-100 seems like it's a fairly easy system to fit, having the motor controller electronics all within the unit.
https://www.elcomotoryachts.com/wp-cont ... EP-100.pdf
The battery recommendation is a bank of 12 x D8 batteries. These seem to be large AGM batteries. Is it just an outdated data sheet?

There are two part finished boats that I'm thinking of going to see: The first a Bruce Roberts Voyager 495

https://scotland.boatshed.com/bruce_rob ... oatmedia-3

and this one, a Bruce Roberts Mauritius 43, although I think it would be too small to full-time live in:

https://www.apolloduck.com/boat/bruce-r ... ale/608772

I've also been doing heaps on motors and batteries. The first Voyager 495 currently has a 150hp John Deere engine in it (I know John Deere more as tractor engines?). Anyway, using the hp to kw conversion, 150 hp isn't a massive difference from 80kW (110kW) which is the size of electric motor in a Nissan Leaf. This got me thinking. For propulsion, would it be better to buy and install the motor, inverter and battery from a Nissan Leaf? (I can buy a 2017, 30,000mile model, with a 30kW battery for £10,000.). Knowing that you can charge a Nissan Leaf from a standard 240V supply (albeit slowly) then it would be easy to charge if the panels didn't keep up. With the Voyager, you could easily fit a 8kW solar deck. I just had another thought. Could you actually run the motor while a charge was being put into the battery? If you think about it, this wouldn't happen in real life.

Oh well, after looking at loads of stuff, I emailed Bruce Roberts and he was of the opinion that a solar boat was feasible and kindly offered to supply plans to alter the Mauritius hull to accommodate this. The fee of almost £3000 was a bit more than I was expecting and then I found the Voyager ad and may not be pursuing the Mauritius after all.

There are quite a few videos now on YouTube of people who've been using their electric setups now for a length of time and I'm of the opinion now that if I don't jump in the water, I'll never know. And as a friend recently told me when I was complaining about the expense of something or other.....'You know, you can't take it with you'.

Any comments, advice or opinions gratefully received.

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Re: New to the game...

Post by narfi »

altruistic wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 11:03 am OK, after another month of looking at various options I've come to this conclusion.
I want to live on a boat for one main reason.
I do not want to die without having experienced more journeys, adventures, cultures, places and people.
You started with this statement, so logic would dictate it is probably the more important criteria.
In any project or plan we have to prioritize and compromise.... the sad truth of it :)
And as we get older, time is MUCH MUCH more valuable.

Building, engineering, tinkering, etc... are all amazing journeys and no one on this site can deny the draw they have.
BUT if your #1 is experiencing journeys, adventures, cultures, places and people, then I would suggest selling everything, setting up a budget that can last, and buy a boat now that can go now. Then go do it!

You can still build, engineer, tinker, etc... but do it while prioritizing your #1 goal, not by sacrificing your #1 goal.

Buy a small catamaran with decent sails, in decent shape, with ok engines.... Set out and experience the adventure, then work on a solar array(without sacrificing your sails), then a bigger lithium bank, then you will know which of your engines is in the worst shape and replace it with electric. At this point you are hybrid and best of all worlds, wind/electric/diesel. Spend a year or two with that, and you will know how much more solar or how much more batteries, etc... you will need in the real life conditions your boat requires. But all this time, you will be living the life and chasing your #1 goal as a priority and not sacrificing it.

My dream was to build our retirement boat, but my wife is wiser than me, and we are looking for one to buy now.
Just my 2cents :)
you have to choose your own path!
No matter what though keep us in the loop, we are all living vicariously through each others' adventures here, so even when we take one path, we can still experience the others through each others eyes. :)

Good Luck!

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Re: New to the game...

Post by Fuzz »

There is a lot of wisdom in what Narfi writes. Few people truly understand what it takes to build a larger boat. And there is always the chance for a major misstep.

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