VG23 Information collected from Forum Posts

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mhd
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VG23 Information collected from Forum Posts

Post by mhd »

We've bought the plans for the VG23 and are in the process of finishing off a FB11 (just the final sails left to do) before starting with that build.

To do some research I searched through the forum for previous info related to the VG23 (or VG20 or VG26 that also is relevant to VG23). After searching for Vagabond on the forums I had over 80 pages of posts to wade through. I simply chose the info that I found useful and copied the replies in a text document and the result is copied below. Just in case anyone else is thinking of building a VG23, as I am, maybe this collected information will be useful for them too.

Below is simply my own list of what I found most relevant/useful/interesting for me. I'm also unaware of anything that may have changed since the original posts were written. The following are mainly comments/replies to questions from Jacques (designer) and Justin (VG20 builder - Just Right) in response to forum questions, but also information/comments from other posters too.

I have a few questions of my own that I will post in future.

Mick

PS Yesterday (29th June 2022), at the end of a work trip to Europe, I visited Brian in the UK - the proud owner of a VG23 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XNFqViRano). He was kind enough to listen to my questions, answer them all honestly, and provide a lot of information on dos and don'ts when building. We had a good chat, a nice cup of tea, and he was also kind enough to take me out for a sail around the harbour. It was a GREAT opportunity to see a VG23 in the water. I can't thank him enough for making time to meet up and provide his thoughts to another prospective builder.

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VG23 RELATED INFORMATION FROM FORUM POSTS/REPLIES
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Yes, there are figures but to discuss them in detail is well beyond the scope of this message board. The main factor is that a sailboat's speed is a direct function of it's waterline length. Then the shape plays an important role: the VG23 has some planing capability and will go faster than an old fashioned heavy design of the same length. The skills of the crew are another very important factor but the VG23 has more speed potential than most boats of her size.

Except for some highly specialized racing boats, sailboats are not very fast. You may occasionally surf at more than 10 kn in a VG23 but most of the time you will be sailing between 4 and 7 kn, 5.5 knots is a good average. Sailboat speed is measured in knots: 1 knot = one nautical mile per hour. The NM is 20% longer than the statute mile. To get a "cardriver" speed, multiply by 1.2.

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Let us know which other designer gives you all those figures . . .

Start with this:
------------
Inputs
Displacement
Draft 0
Trim
LCG
Depth
Linear units, Model In.
Linear units, Output in.
Weight units, Input Lb.
Weight units, Output Lb.

Outputs
Length, Overall..............22.48 Waterplane Area......11656.14 sq in
Beam.........................96.81 Lbs/Inch Immersion........431.71 Lb
Depth, Midhsip.................N/A LCB.......................110.57 in
Length, Waterline........269.72 in VCB........................-5.10 in
Beam, Waterline...........69.40 in LCF.......................107.83 in
Baseline Draft ............0.00 in Mom to trim 1 in....4758.25 in.-lbs
Fairbody Draft ...........24.78 in Trim, Degrees..................0.00
Displacement...........3,106.25 Lb Trim, ......................0.00 in
Volume.................48.54 cu in BMt.........................3.14 in
Disp/0.01L^3................122.12

Ratios
Underbody Hull
Length / Breadth............3.8864 Length / Beam................2.7861
Breadth / Draft.............2.8007 Beam / Depth....................N/C
Length / Draft.............10.8846 Length / Depth..................N/C

Coefficients
Block Coefficient ..........0.1808 Disp/0.01L^3.................122.12
Midship Coefficient.........0.3467 Prismatic Coefficient.......0.5215
Waterplane Coefficient.....0.6227
--------------
I'll give you more if you show me the same data from other designers.
Some data can be extracted from the study plans too.

===========================

The Serpentaire has the exact same trailer weight, 2,500 lbs. The displacement is calculated at an arbitrary waterline, the DWL I drafted it lower in this boat. If we raised the waterline to the same level than the Serpentaire, we would get a displacement of 4,100 lbs. This boat should race at a displacement of 3100 lbs but can cruise fast at a displacement of 4,000 lbs +.

This boat has a higher PPI than the Serpentaire: 431 lbs. This means that, at the DWL, it takes 431 lbs to bring the WL up 1". That PPI itself increases fast due to the chine. At 4,000 lbs, the chine is still well above the water and the skirt (transom) clears the water by several inches.

Head etc.: it is impossible to put a separate head in that size boat unless you want it to look and sail like a floating condo. We recommend a Porta-Potti. I would prefer to see it under the companion way but it can be installed forward either across the CB trunk (tight) or under the vee berth. In that case, as Justin noticed, the stringer must be cut down.

We are working from a new very detailed spreadsheet and I have to make some decisions on what we call trailer weight. I am not going to go over the structure etc., all that is in there but I added something that may look strange for a small boat: trim ballast, 250 lbs. You don't really need trim ballast but let's keep it in mind and think of it as a safety margin. I put those 250 lbs at the CF.

Everything you need to sail the boat is included in the trailer weight but not outboard or gas. Spars, rigging and sails are included. All hardware, clear but also winches, a 1 lb dorade vent (!) and a 5 lbs stove. That gives us a trailer weight of 2,500 lbs. No cruising weigths BUT remember that trim ballast? You do what you want with it but, if the builder is sloppy or does not trust the designer's scantlings, it will be gone in extra hull weight. If he did a good job, he will be rewarded either with more ballast for performance or an extra 250 lbs of whatever he wants for comfort: beer? ice? dinghy? spare batteries? 250 lbs is nice.

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I edited my previous post: it was not clear that spars and rigging were included. I may make that new spreadsheet available to those who buy the plans. It will allow them to calculate how a modification affects the balance of the boat. There is a small difference with the Vagabond in the CG of the keel. Because of the extra volume towards the stern, we fill it from the stern side. Since most people tend to overload the cockpit lockers, that volume helps a lot. Ideally, builders should draw the waterline as you describe, put 1,100 lbs or almost in the keel, load the boat with it's normal payload including crew, outboard etc. and see what happens. Adjustments can be made with the trim ballast. I had one boat with which I sailed one full season before deciding where I exactly wanted the trim ballast.

Yes, the cut in the bottom is longer than the trunk opening. I don't remember why I designed it that way but it may be that I was planning to round the forward inside corner to make the removal of the CB (maintenance) easier. I know that I designed it that way on other boats and it worked well. You can always drop the CB straight but with the ballast, it wants to swing forward. Anyway, I don't show the rounded corner. Locate the keel the way it is show in this drawing. You can either cover that edge with epoxy or round it then epoxy over it.

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Mast is stepped on deck like on 99% of today's boats. Roof will not bend: there is bulkhead under the mast

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Yes, large drains. What is the temperature and viscosity of seawater? I need that to calculate flow . . . OK, just drill drains like 3" wide.

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C4 : Safety harness attachments points in the cockpit properly secured with backplates.

You install that. I had that on all my offshore boats, easy.

(How big will the motor need to be to obtain that kind of hull speed with the VG23?)

3 HP and a 20 liter tank.

E4 : Permanently installed water tanks.

E8 : Bunks to be fitted with lee cloths.

F5 : Boat must have two bilge pumps, manually operated, each capable of doing 2000 l an hour.

F16 : Suction piping for bilge pumps should be arranged that each and every bilge or main compartment
can be drained.

F17 : Anchors : 2 anchors, each 1kg per metre of boat length and 4m of chain and 55m warp.

F19 : Radar reflector of 10m2 equivalent echo area.

You can do all that.

H9 : Life raft to be carried
(Will it be possible to fit one in a cradle in the cockpit ?)

Yes, I think we show that on the plans.

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Try coating your brass hinges with epoxy
As an experiment, probably 30 years ago, I coated a simple wooden handle for a top on a cheap aluminum egg poacher with epoxy and glued it onto the aluminum cover. I have run the cover through the dishwasher perhaps hundreds of times. The glue joint is still intact and the finish on the handle hasn't deteriorated. Certainly a test of temperature cycling in materials with dissimilate coefficents of expansion in temperatures beyond normal range recommended for epoxy while immersed in a strong chemical solution.

Recently, perhaps five years ago, I coated an aluminum defrosting plate with epoxy. We use the plate about once a day, heating it with hot tap water. I don't run it in the dishwasher but it is washed each use. I have one place where the epoxy has come off, otherwise, it is intact with no oxidation.

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Dear Sirs:
>
> We will buy a kit Vagabond 23 but before that I want
> to know if you can provide it plywood whit
> certification BS 1088.
>
> I can pick up the kit in NY only let me know were it
> is. I understand you need increase the price then tell
> me who much it is.
>
> I need know too if the boat is self righting and can
> have functional buoyancy or we can ad it.
>

1. Kit with BS1088 plywood.
Okume = $ 3,895.00
Meranti = $ 3,195.00.
Discount for pickup = $ 200.00.
As the designer, I consider the BS6566 more than sufficient. All
plywood parts are epoxy coated in and outside, all hull surfaces up
to 12" above the waterline are fiberglassed. There is no need for
BS1088.

2. Self-righting: please see books like "Desirable and Undesirable
Characteristics of Offshore Yachts" or refer to stability indexes
like the STYX. Boats with positive righting moments up to 130 degrees
are considered self-righting. Build as designed, the VG23 has
positive stability up to 130 degrees with CB keel, 145 degrees with
the deep keel.


> We want to see more description and details. Do you
> have or sell study plans, technical data and pictures?
> We can send ASAP a MO for the study plans.
>
Did you see the online study plans? That is all waht is available for now, sorry.

> We want to know to if you can customize the plans,
> bigger (6’ more) and reinforce it because we want the
> boat for solo circumnavigation. We need ad on board
> small engine and small generator, water making and the
> usual electronics devices. We want redundant capacity
> plus manual systems: pumps, manual steering, celestial
> navigation.
>

Several standard Serpentaires 22' circumnavigated without all that equipment. It looks oike you need a larger boat. We may have a new design 27' next year.

===========================
Too many questions but I'll answer some . . .
First, you may need a bigger boat to fulfill some of your requirements: we are working on it.

No diesel possible in the VG23.

Stability of "stub" keels: I sailed half around the world including several transats in such a boat: 3' draft for 40' is very little. I never feared to capsize. We will show a deep keel option soon but I would not worry about stability. A good number of experienced offshore sailors (I am one of them) clearly say that there is more danger of capsizing with a deep keel than with a shallow keel. Lots was written about that including by two sailors that passed Cape Horn under sail: Miles Smeeton and Patrick Van God. The Vagabond test with the mast horizontal was a test, only a test. Some racing boats are tested that way, it doesn't mean that it happens at sea! You misunderstood the message. Our boats do not dip their mast in the sea (or then maybe in a hurricane.)

Twin rudders: I worked hard on balancing the hull lines so that the boat would not require twin rudders. I would prefer not to see twin rudders on that boat.

===========================
Couple of questions:

1. Within the plans (ie. vg23) are there options presented for "rearranging the furniture" /optional floorplans or do you handle them in a case by case basis as the builders make their desires known to you?

No other floor plans included but you can "rearrange the furniture" as long as you keep the main framing approximately where they are. That means bulkheads, longitudinals like the seatee sides, something like the galley to support the CB trunk etc.

2. Is Pipkorn's 4hp outboard about the right size for the vg23 or do you recommend something bigger or smaller when under power?

I would go up to 6 HP but not more.

3. I tend not to cut corners and often overbuild or overengineer my projects. Is your recommendation to follow the plans explicitly rather than adding additional weight through strengthening and to ask you before tempting to "enhance" the structure?

Thanks,
Emile

Our boats are very strong as designed. We use high safety margins to account for mistakes made by amateurs. The best way to build a strong boat is stay with our specifications but do a quality job.

===========================
There is sitting headroom: around 1 m above bunks. Saloon berths are 195 cm long and can be made longer, vee berth 192 cm.

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Max. beam is 248 cm, 252 with rubrail.
The extra cms on the study plans show the max. clearance with the stanchions sticking out at a slight angle. We should change the study plans notes to reflect that.

There is sitting headroom, it varies with a max. of 110 cm, in the middle, from the floor, max. 145 cm. Please do not ask for standing headroom.

===========================
Scaling: difficult but possible. Do a search to read about all the "problems": plywood waste, change of scantlings etc.

The VG23 fits on a standard trailer. Trailer shops always adjust the bunks to fit the boat.

===========================
Where did you read that? The Serpentaire was also not designed for that purpose, she was designed for club racing but at least 50 crossed the Atlantic and at least two circumnavigated. The VG23 is a serious improvement on the Serpentaire and she can do all what a Serpentaire can do but better. Bottom line, if you want a minimum boat to circumnavigate, the VG23 is a fine choice. It is an exciting project that I had when I was 18. I never realized it but sailed several boats half around the world, from the Indian Ocean and Med to the South Atlantic and all kind of other places like the North Sea. You choose the right approach: get used to the boat in coastal waters first then increase your range. Doing that, you will discover that a 23 footer is very small and will require some serious sacrifcies in comfort but when I was young, I didn't care to be wet and uncomfortable, maybe the VG23 will work. If not, sell her and build a bigger one: it is a good way to progress towards a bigger boat.


===========================
Would the FB11 fit on the foredeck of the Vagabond 23 when nested - I don't mind the forehatch being obscured. I loathe inflatables!

No, sorry.

[!!! Wish I'd read this post before deciding to build an FB11 - I suppose we're going to need to build another tender too !!!]

===========================
After spending 165 days on Just Right, I have a few suggestions for a new builder. Overall the plans are very good and will produce a great boat. Here are a few rambling suggestions:

1. Stay with the plans. Making major mods isn't worth it.

2. The cockpit seat tops don't drain. The cockpit sole is sloped aft and drains nicely. Try to align the forward back edge of the seat top parallel to the cockpit sole. Add a small 3/8 inch drain hole in the transom at the seat top.

Since this wasn't possible in my boat, I added a drain hole from the seat top forward edge into the backrest locker which already had a drain hole overboard.

3. The skirt is VERY useful as drawn. We love it. I have a 5 HP 4 stroke Nissan outboard which powers the boat nicely. I did have a structrural failure of the simple bracket in the plans. Actually, mine was somewhat stronger. I braced the interior of the port side skirt and added brackets and extra glass in the repair. It is solid now after several years of use. The 4 stroke outboards have some strange vibration modes which can cause problems. I may have shown pictures of the bracing at my web page.

4. I recently found a crack in the glass of my rudder right near the bottom gudgeon. I had no idea of how much bending that the rudder is subjected to. I used a single layer of DB120. I think my failure could be traced to sanding the glass too much at the wrap around the rudder. Be careful of sanding the glass.

5. I would not build the steel keel again. I would build the keel using the "built onto keel shell" that JM is proposing for the VG23. After four years of use and some beachings, I did make a few repairs to the surface and added a zinc to the keel. I had a minimum amount of corrosion to deal with. I do use the boat in saltwater. I found that the epoxy coating, fairing and epoxy primer were a good barrier coat. I used an ablative bottom paint on the bottom.

6. I used the S3 primer and paint on the exteerior of the boat. I used Brightside on the interior. The S3 paint has worked well. There are some application constraints but I am happy with the performance. I applied about 2 or three coats of Interlux high build primer on the hull before switching to the S3 primer and top coat. As I have gone back to do some touch up, I am impressed with how durable the two part epoxy primers are. Where to top coat was scratched, the primer was intact unless it was a puncture wound. Use lots of primer...it will pay off and make the final fairing a lot easier. I purchased the S3 paint in 1998 and the extra paint was stored in closed cans until this year. I sanded, epoxy coated several dings, primed with the original primer and top coated with the original color coat and clear top coat. The colors matched very well and the repair looked good from "3 feet". This may not be good enough for a super ski boater but for a cruiser, the finish has been great. The lack of odor when painting is very good for us amateurs who paint in our garages. I would use the paint inside the boat too if doing it again.

Ease of application, good durability, long self life, reapirability...good stuff.

7. I used pigmented epoxy on the insides of lockers. Very good idea.

8. We designed the boat for one week endurance. We are now taking three week trips. I built in an 8 gallon water tank under the sink. I would probably have outfitted the triangular space low in the bow as an additional water tank just in case I wanted to take more water for a long trip. We use about a gallon a day for two people. We might have drunk a gallon a day in the heat of the Fl keys.

9. Almost everything at my web site is still accurate. We thought a great deal ahead of time and built the boat carefully. It paid off.

10. Don't go too light on the trailer. The all up boat on the trailer will go about 3100-3500 pounds. I have rebuilt the trailer several times over before getting it to carry the load. We weighed the seaprate parts recently. Trailer was 1040 pounds, a lot heavier than the builders guess of 580 pounds. We have electrical brake controller which drives hydraulic disks. I converted to larger 15 inch tires and a 5000 pound axle. I towed with a 3.L minivan which was just OK in the montains. The new Nissan Quest with more HP and torque is great. No problem towing a 68 mph and running up to 75 to pass. In Texas, we tested the panic stop and we managed to stop just in time. Incidentally, the hull, ballast, and deck hardware weighed 2040 pounds...a little more than JMs original estimate of 1550 but still light.

11. We have received many favorable comments on the boatl. and no bad comments. Everyone seems to appreciate the design and construction.

12. The boat is a fast cruiser. We just got back from a two week trip with a new Seaward 26RK. Although we have to give him a handicap for towing a Walker Bay dinghy, we were always faster than he was except when the wind blew hard enough that he simply waterlined us. We were moving 5.3-6 Knots on a close reach. We've sailed the boat under a variety of conditions and she sails well. We reef early but maintain good speed when reefed. We get about 20-30 NM/gal when motoring.

13. Our boat is FULL when we are cruising. The boat trims to the design waterline but is slightly stern down when we are in the cockpit. I would ballast the keel slightly bow down. Put all the lead forward first, This will leave lots of space in the last keel shell compartment.

14. The rigging plan we used has worked very well. It does take us 2-2.5 hours to completely rig and launch the boat. An overcenter lever to tighten the headstay would be a timesaver. We use the spin pole as shown at my web site to raise the mast and tighten headstay.

15. The galley has worked very well. We haven't felt the need for a gimballed stove. I am still working on a cabin heater. The galley stove is generally too hot. I haven't found a smaller propane burner yet. A 1 pound propane bottle lasts us about 5 days. We like the no through hull idea that JM originally proposed.

16. The Dwyer mast and boom have been very satisfactory. The Snapfurl roller reef furler has been great. The sails I ordered from North Sails Cruising Direct have been very good and well priced. I have both types of spinnakers as well as a heavy air staysail that I made myself.

I am always willing to answer questions. No garantee that the answers won't be biased. Enjoy building the Vagabond and be assured that the results will be a great little boat.

===========================
That said, I believe it would be possible to locate the head farther aft, between frames C and D or just opposite the galley. You could still face aft in use, keep the entire port berth. and recover the volume used by the current head for storage space. The head cover could be built at the same level as the vee berth and used as a chart table. For a chart table. I use a removable flat panel that fits in this position.

In the "heaving to" post, the topic of adding a bridge deck came up. I thought about our experience sailing the VG20 and just wanted to insert a thought on bridge decks in tiny minicruisers.

What impressed me about the Vagabond/ Primo when I first saw the plans at Jacques early web site was how ergonomic the design was. I had tried to design a similar size boat and struggled with the human factors layout of the interior and exterior to fit our cruising experience. After cruising Just Right for five years, I find it hard to find any significant problems with the design. That's why I recommend to builders to build the boat according to the plans.

The VG20 hatch has a de facto bridge deck in the sense that the hatch opening is at seat level. If the cockpit ever did fill, the cockpit drain should keep water from flowing into the interior. Once the hatch board and hatch cover are closed, the boat is pretty well sealed. I was impressed with the wide oval cross section of the hull with the angled side decks and could subjectively envision the boat taking a full knockdown or beyond and rolling back up again. So much for the ultimate wave! We are still watching and waiting.

In practice, we have never had any water inside the boat except for one occasion. In fact, we have never even had any significant water on deck much less sweeping into the cockpit. We have never had a wave come over the transom. We are coastal cruisers and haven't taken the boat on any ocean crossings but this hull shape is superb for a small boat.

Finally to the bridge deck. The bridgedeck here is defined to be an extension of the seat level deck out to the mid cockpit traveller. First the advantage. The bridgedeck reduces the size of the cockpit so that that ultimate wave would add less water to the cockit and would drain faster...a safety factor. A second advantage is the the bridge deck possibly adds some strength to the boat although the way the ring bulkhead in the VG20 is built, I'm not sure that adds anything, particularly if the bulkhead is cut away to add inside space. In larger boats where a queen size bunk is added aft, the bridgedeck allows headroom over the bunk.

Now, my considerations for smaller boats. In a small boat, it is highly desireable to keep crew weight as far forward as possible. With two people in the cockpit, the helmsman sits just aft of the traveller. In fact in light air, I often extend my forward leg over the traveller. My crew sits forward of the traveller. The leg space is just right for one person. The VG20 cockpit seats are just the right size so that when the boat heels, crew and helmsman can brace feet against the opposite seat edge. [One reason I like the hard edge of the VG20 seat edge rather than the rolled edge of the later designs. Easier to build and IMO, a firmer grip for the feet.] If the bridge deck were added, the crew would not be able to sit upright or brace against the seat edge. A standard floatation cushion fits between the traveller and bulkhead. A second cushion provides a back rest.

The second ergonomic consideration is when going below. It is easy to step over the current hatch opening with one leg and onto a step [ice chest] below. If the bridgedeck were added, one would have to step up top of the bridge deck and then down to the step below. If the boom is centered, you will have to work around it. Try a thought experiment and see if you agree.

If one wanted to reduce cockpit volume, perhaps decking over the rear of the cockpit and adding a lazarette hatch might be an alternative.

Another final thought. One of the reasons that we haven't had any water below is that my boat [per the plans] doesn't have any cockpit hatches. Not only are hatches which don't leak difficult to build but they are also a future maintenance problem. We find the cutout compartments in the backrest work very well to store both winch handles and halyard tails but also on deck essentials like sun lotion, gloves, jelly beans and even VHF, camera, etc. The compartments are fitted with drains so any casual water drains overboard. We store wet gear forward. The extra aft compartments below are used to store our bedding during the day, and luggage at night. Access from the end of the bunks is easy.

I hope nobody reading this considers this a criticism of the design but more like food for thought. One of the reason for building your own boat is that you can customize features that you won't find in an off-the-shelf boat.

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First: I am the source of the 2 hour time to rig not just any Vagabond but Just Right. In order to get the boat and mast in my garage, I totally disasemble the mast to get it into my garage. Many trailersailers just unstep the mast and leave the rigging attached. Next, Just Right has a very complete rigging system, much different than the original Vagabond plans. After I reassemble the mast including spreaders and shrouds and raise the mast, I have to string three halyards, spinnaker topping lift and foreguy, preventers, roller furling, jib and spinnaker sheets, mainsheet, and vang all back to the cockpit and attach the backstay. I have to raise the jib on the roller furler and attach two sets of reef lines in the main. Then, install the rudder and outboard. This may sound like a lot of rigging compared with the AD14 but it makes Just Right a fully competant minicruiser. We regularly use all these lines and rigging. Your Vagabond may not need all these lines. Ours does and we pay the price in time to rig partly in exchange for being able to keep the boat in a town house garage. Yes, you can design the rigging for a Vagabond to be much easier to rig and closer to what you think it will take to rig an Adelie. Also, remember that the Adelie rig as specified is much lighter than the Vagabond rigging. My Vagabond mast and furler weighs about 80 pounds. The AD14 is probably less than half that weight. We have tested the Vagabond rig in perhaps 25-30 K winds and we know that the boat can be sailed under these conditions, I mean really sailed...to weather with only our two person fairly light crew. If the Adelie is enlarged to 16 feet, that is just 2 feet less than the Vagabond without skirt. The mast will have to approach the Vagabond mast in size and weight. If free standing, it will be even larger.

The Adelie design is great for what is intended. It will compare favorably to the Potter 14 or the Montgomery 15 both commercially available boats for someone who wants to build rather than buy. Cost wise, be careful, the Potter is apparently available on your doorstep with sails, trailer and outboard for around $10,000. When compared with some of the available plans in the US like some of the Bolger style boats, the Devlin's Nancy's China or Weekender, the AD14 is a real full fleged boat with selfbailing cockpit, and plenty of ballast...a real safe boat. What it is not is a boat with enough room inside to perform what I would consider adequate for long term occupancy. With a 40 inch headroom, I don't see how one can easily work in a functioning head. Jacques points out that with the platform concept, it is like camping in a tent. We recently spent 7 days on a cruise in the Vagabond. We stayed on the boat the entire time, eating, sleeping, reading, chatting with other cruisers, snorkling and enjoying the sun and view. Without the fitout of the interior and lots of storage, this trip wouldn't have been possible for us. For an adventurous weekend, the Adelie would be fine but after that, you would have to be more spartan than we are. I am not sure how I would find a comfortable sitting position with the flat floor and and sharply angled top sides. Entending the Adelie by two feet wouldn't necessarily solve these problems if I were looking forward to a minicruiser kind of boat.

Why does the Adelie look so much easier to build? Two panel vee bottom. Half as many frames. Simple cat rig. Fairly short mast. Plumb transom. Simplified lamination schedule. Internal ballast. Centerboard only.

Admittedly, my bias is toward a safe, comfortable minicruiser with the capability for several compatible people to spend a week on a cruise. Now that I have said that, let me suggest that if that is your aim, perhaps a 16 foot boat along the lines of a value engineered VG23 might be a candidate. Here's why:

The AD14 shallow vee bottom hull is a great choice for a small 14 foot boat which is expected to carry a cruising load. This hull shape will have high initial stability. With enough wind, with the 114 feet of sail area, it will fly. The five panel shape of the Vagabonds 20 and 23 in my opinion is an exeptional hard chine hull shape. When upright, the waterline is very slender making the boat very fast in light air and very efficient when powering. We get 25-35 nm/gal when motoring. As soon as the boat heels, the chine dips into the water, providing increased stability and the hidden benefit of a very long keel like shape. We have outpointed almost every boat we have encountered in Just Right. In a 14 foot boat, the five panel shape will not have that rock solid feeling like the AD14. As the hull gets longer like perhaps 16 feet, the five panel hull may have enough initial stability to work out. The huge advantage of the five panel shape is that it will be a lot more seaworthy shape in any kind of sea or at anchor with a swell rolling in. A boat with high initial stability tends to heel much more as a wave rolls underneath the boat. The boat with less initial stability tends to heel less. A comfortable cruising boat to me is one which is always in motion as waves come and go. The secret is to have a hull with a fairly smooth, slow roll. Boats with heavy, deep ballast and flatter bottoms tend to sail fast but have a snap rolll and tend to make the passengers seasick. The VG20 has a fairly symmetrical fore and aft waterline shape. This makes a the hull a good performer at displacement speeds and keeps the hull from sailing nose down. I understnd that the VG23 is a bit beamier aft which will help to carry the usually heavily overloaded cockpit and make the boat sportier to sail...she wil surf more easily. I would expect that this hull shape could rival the vee shape at 16 feet.

The VG20 sloped deck sides make the boat especially good looking. The boat has enough beam that the slope doesn't interfere with comfortable seating. The beam of a 16 foot boat could cause problems with similarly sloped sides. The VG23 uses extended side panels which will make the boat easier to build, provide internal sitting room and make the deck wider. The decks on the AD14 are very narrow, almost too narrow to go forward. The foredeck on the VG20 is marginal but workable.

The internal layout of both Vagabonds is very functional...trust me...we have tested it for 190 days on board. The head position makes it usable. Not private but very workable. The galley is great. The bunks and storage spaces aft of the bunks is functional. The vee berths forward are probably better used for storage but could sleep someone small.

We find the skirt very functional as a very solid, reliable and low cost engine mount. However, the VG23 low transom is much simpler to build. The motor can probably tilt into the cockpit with appropriate design.

The AD14 centerboard could be used and is probably easier to build than the keel centerboard. The way of adding the internal ballast in the AD14 is a piece of cake compared with the Vagabond keel centerboard. An alternative would be to cast a lead shoe instead of the AD14 wooden keel shoe. The advantage of the centerboard and five panel hull is that it will sit upright when beached.

The VG20 is probably the stiffest, strongest feeling boat that I have ever sailed. It is very comforting when we are out 20 miles offshore with the wind blowing hard. But, I expect that the composite structure could stand to be considerably lighter in a 16 foot boat. The ~2 foot frame spacing works out nicely in the interior layout but but fewer frames of 6MM plywood would probably be adequate and save time, weight and cost as well as simplify building time.

The sail plan of the AD14 has a lot to recommend it. If the main were kept the same size but the extra length used to provide a fractional rig lapper jib the sail area might be adequate. I'd add the option of either the AD14 pole but deck mounted as the Ultimate 20 or a conventional spinnaker. For all out versatility, the conventional spinnaker has a lot to recommend it.

I see that a precut plywood kit if now available for the VG20 at a very attractive price. A similar kit for the VG16 would clear away one of the problems we have all faced in acquiring plywood and spending time to layout and cut.


===========================
Comparing the VG20 and the VG23.

One quick way to compare two boats is to calculate the standard ratios. I used Carl's Sailing Calculator to come up with some comparisons.

First number is VG23, second is VG20:
Inputs:
LOA: 23' 19'8"
Draft: 2'/4'8" 1'6"/3'3"
Displacement: 3750 2350 lbs
Sail Area: 295 sq ft 200 sq ft
Beam: 8'1" 7'6"
Est. LWL: 20.17 17.25 ft.

Calculated:
Capsize ratio: 2.08 2.26 (<2, considered good)
Hull speed: 6 K 5.6K (Longer water line, greater speed)
Sail area/ disp: 19.55 18.1 (Higher ratio, more "horsepower")
Disp/length ratio: 204 204 (204 is light displacement)
LWL/ Beam: 2.496 2.3
Comfort index: 16.94 13.69 (higher number is more comfortable boat)

Ratings: I believe the French have rated boats for seaworthiness offshore. My understanding is that the Primo (predecessor of the Vagabond was rated for up to 200 miles offshore and the Serpentiare ( predecessor of the VG23) was rated for off shore/ anywhere.

Trailerability:
In my opinion, the Vagabond is close to the limit of trailering with a minivan or light truck. The hull weights about 1500+ pounds. Ready to trailer, the boat, equipment and trailer are about 3000+ pounds + about 500 pounds in the Van. The boat can be launched on most ramps. Setup takes 2 people about 2 hours.

Scaling, the VG23 will probably weigh about 5000 pounds with equipment and trailer. That weight will probably require a four wheel trailer and a medium size truck to tow. The boat will still be launchable from most ramps because of the shallow draft. The mast will require some mechanism to raise it or several people pushing. Setup time should be comparable to the VG20.

Offshore:

I assume that offshore means extended offshore cruising with legs of a month or more offshore.

Bigger is almost always more comfortable. Capsize ratio is better for the VG23. Comfort index is higher. Ability to carry a load can be estimated by subtracting trailer weight from displacement. The Vagabond will carry about 6-700 pounds. The VG23 almost twice that. We find that the Vagabond will carry what we need to cruise in comparative style for 2-3 weeks. For a longer cruise, the VG23 should carry considerably more. The first 500 pounds is essential gear, the rest is food and water. The same 500 pounds of essentials would be about the same for either boat so the extra would consist of more food and water and some additional offshore gear like a SSB radio, EPIRB, and liferaft. (of course this stuff adds about $5000 to the cost to cruise.) The VG20 is a great boat for two compatible people. Although the VG23 has a somewhat larger vee berth forward, for offshore, more than two people wouldn't work either.

Our experience with the VG20 "offshore" has been limited to overnight crossings. We have cruised for up to three weeks but we are usually anchored or in a slip in the evening. Our longest crossings were going to and from the Bahamas from Florida. Both were at night. Our experience so far has been that we have been faster than the 23, 25 and 26 foot boats in our group. We seem to be much faster than the smaller minicruisers like WWP 17, and Montgomery 17s, particulary considering that we haven't stripped out the boat.

We find the "five panel" hull shape of the VG20 (and vg23) a remarkable shape for speed under sail, power and comfort at anchor. The Vagabond is a "displacement" hull, easily driven in low wind velocity but not given to wild planing or surfing. I find that a desireable characteristic for cruising boats. The designer has given the VG23 a little more beam aft and a flatter rocker which should make the boat surf a little more easily. It should be fun to sail in a breeze but still controlled I expect. Boats with lots of beam aft like to sail flat (i.e. lots of crew weight on the rail...not usually available on short handed cruising boats.)

The composite construction and structural frame construction is superb. Our Vagabond is one of the stiffest structures of any boat I have sailed on. We have absolutely no leaks. With moderate maintenance, the boat has held up very well.

The interior layout of both boats is very similar and in my opinion, the best interior layout I have seen in a small cruising boat. The VEE berth forward may work for conjugal encounters in port but by an large will be totally filled with gear when you are cruising.

The deck layout and cockpit of both boats are similar. The angled side decks on the VG20 serve a purpose but also have some drawbacks. Any cruising boat should have provision for a dodger. The wider side deck of the VG23 will permit a dodger. I haven't seen a way to fit one on the VG20. We find the skirt platform on the Vagabond one of the nicest features. The VG23 could be built with a skirt deck aft.

The VG20 has a fractional rig, the VG23 a masthead rig. This means that the headsail will be larger in proportion and thus more than one headsail may be needed. The spinnakers will be larger...more potential for speed but also, more to put up and more to take down. But...managagable. The spreaders on the VG20 are swept back at about 30 degrees, desireable for a fractional rig. The VG23 spreaders don't appear to have the same sweep angle. Thus, the boom can be let out further and the boat can be sailed dead down wind more easily. With a spinnaker up, the VG23 should really truck.

Cost and construction:

Consider the total cost of outfitting a "cruising system" i.e. the boat, and all the equipment necessary to go to sea. The costs can be divided into fixed and variable components. The variable costs are largely those associated with the boat. Some of these cost ratio by the pound (twice as much ballast in the VG23 means twice the cost for lead), by the square foot (sails), or simply by the amount needed. The fixed costs are things like radios, dinghys, stoves, safety equipment, galley gear, matresses, etc. Although somewhat a variable cost, is the rigging and deck gear. If I were building a VG23, I would use almost identical rigging as the VG20. A major cost item is the outboard engine. A 5 HP would power either boat just fine.

I think the VG23 would take about the same number of hours to construct as the VG20. The VG20 side deck panel is eliminated. The VG23 keel method is easier and cheaper but could also be adopted for a VG20. The precut plywood kit for the VG23 should be a real time saver.
===========================
FB11 (Designer Evan Gatehouse)
VG23 (Designer Jacques Mertens)

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein.

fallguy1000
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Re: VG23 Information collected from Forum Posts

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