Gel coat on a big boy toy.

Questions about boat repairs with our resins and fiberglass: hull patches, transoms and stringers, foam, rot etc.
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Jaysen
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Gel coat on a big boy toy.

Post by Jaysen »

Neighbor is a charter captain. Runs a HHH Boat works 34’ cat with asymmetrical hulls out about 100mi to get some wahoo and other fun things. Needed a little repair work and apparently I’m the guy.

This is port side bow a bit below the running waterline.
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This is port side step on the inside line of the hull.
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Plan is to grind a bit out of each, and use some glass fiber and poly on that step hit. Looks like a little core poking out. Then hit it with gel. I may need to grind a bit more out of the bow too. We shall see.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

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Jaysen
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Re: Gel coat on a big boy toy.

Post by Jaysen »

Fun fact: it’s a carbon hull. Need to call HHH to make sure we have comparable materials. Will do cleaning and minimal prep until I get answers.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

Fuzz
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Re: Gel coat on a big boy toy.

Post by Fuzz »

What have you gone and got yourself into?? If the damage is into the core this might end up being a ton of work. And dealing with carbon fiber is an added thrill :help:

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Jaysen
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Re: Gel coat on a big boy toy.

Post by Jaysen »

We can all agree, I’m not smart. I figure that this particular repair is the best way to make myself smarter. As in teach me to stop doing this stuff.

Hopefully the manufacturer will be quick to provide some details. These aren’t what I would consider “bottom end boats”. I suspect they would rather provide some assistance than let an ugly one float around out there.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

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Jaysen
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Re: Gel coat on a big boy toy.

Post by Jaysen »

Been a while on this. Big update. The timeline on this is from the last post. There was much thinking and staring at the problem before acting. The reason for that will be clear. This gets more fun than you can imagine...

Been working with HHH Boatworks so the action plan here is "per the factory spec" and they (HHH) are paying for the repair. I'm going slow, sending pics to them, and taking their advice (as well as Fuzz's). This will make sense in about 2 minutes (if you read slow and look at pictures).

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Full Hookups is a 35' fast cat with 2x Merc 300 verado (the supercharged ones). Captain is a bit like me and Adam... they wouldn't have put all that room under the throttle if it wasn't supposed to be used. Boat tops out at a bit over 60 and is regularly abused at 50+ in 3+' seas. He tends to slow down at 4'. Vinylester over carbon, encapsulating foam core. Hull is #6 but was the first "non-company boat" on the water and the third built by a "non-company" factory (all manufacture is now in-house for HHH).

Shane (the owner) has had it down to Homestead for a few repairs... not all of them his fault. Most of them are his fault, just not all of them. The gel coat repair that started this thread is all Shane. But...

We have full bow eye blow out!
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As I was preparing to start on the gel, Shane asked me to look at the bow eye. Bow eye was loose. Just rattling on the hull. "Been like this a while. Started making noise about three tows ago, but she's been living at the marina so I didn't think anything of it. Not really safe to town to Homestead. You want to fix it?" HELL YES I DO!!! Called the factory and the owner/naval arch got on the phone with me and confirmed that this was a known issue. The original contract called for high-density foam and the contracted factory assumed it wouldn't be noticed if they put low-density foam in there. It was noticed.

I cut out a 2"x4" area of the inner skin with the SOB tool. There was nothing but dust under the undersized backing plate crush area. I removed all the damaged foam and a bit more. Followed that up with a bit of "beveling" to the factory spec. Since they supplied all the coosa, vinylester, glass and gel, I'm following their directions (so I know the bevel seems "short" but this is warranty work with no room for me to deviate, it gets bigger later).
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This is the external gell and glass cracking from the bow eye pulling through the core.
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Took a break from bending over the anchor locker and figured I'd prep the gel areas for a bit of "structure". Per HHH what I thought was core showing in the step, was just a fold in the glass. Their direction was to grind a nice surface to get a good bond, then fill with an off-the-shelf 3m product that is polyester and glass fiber. A dremel, some drum sanding with 80gr got me to ...
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Actually had to crawl under the trailer to get to the step hit.
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Took a break from being a "hull troll" and climbed back into the anchor locker. Cut me some new core. Trimmed the hole and plug for the indicated <1/4" gap, coated the plug with 3m product and slipped it in.
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Since I was using the 3m product for the plug I rebuilt the bow and step in prep for gel.
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Following this HHH and I got into a bit of a "discussion" about glass sizing, beveling, and lamination. They wanted 10oz, 6x10" sheets with 4 staggered layers of 2.25x4.25" 12oz CSM over the plug. I questioned how it would tie to the glass over the gel and they suggested that I would sand it back. to the beveled area. Keep in mind I have a new FG backing plate that is 8x12" so the entire repair is under the plate. They agreed that widening the bevel would give me better glass bond and given the size of the plate would be better. So I fixed it... but only to their spec.
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And that brings us to Sunday. I created a damn should the vinyl pull an epoxy trick like "I want to run downhill fast!" then prepped for layup. Everyone says "vinyl and poly are the same". What no one mentioned was the difference in catalyst ratios. I applied a layer of "catalyzed" vinyl to the repair, laid the bottom sheet, add vinyl, add csm, add vinyl, add sheet, add vinyl, and rolled.
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Now fallguy1000's head exploded about 2 paragraphs ago since all of us would have used a smaller bottom sheet and built up to the top sheet. In this case it worked out to my advantage. Monday I walked over, put on gloves, and pulled the entire dripping layup off the hull. A couple wipes with acetone and we were almost ready for a second try.

I way under-catalyzed the vinyl. Fuzz walked me through getting my ratio corrected (which nearly set my shed on fire). I've called HHH and had a "are you sure about this layup" and was greeted with "You missed the ratio, right?" They KNEW it would happen. "You're an epoxy guy. Normally you guys start a fire. I figured you were smarter than most and would under-catalyze since you called about which resin to use. That's why we sent the extra glass. If you think you have the ratio down, use the lamination you think is correct. If not use the oversized bottom so you can pull it off easy. Won't be weaker if you sand it back later. And thanks for not setting the boat on fire."

I have to admit that this has been fun so far. I'm hoping to get the glass done CORRECTLY later today. If y'all see a big black cloud north east of Savannah, it's probably just me missing the ratio. Again.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

fallguy1000
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Re: Gel coat on a big boy toy.

Post by fallguy1000 »

Localized loading fail..two possible failure cases, simple shear or compression failure...based on the picture, hard to tell, but I'd say compression, meaning the washers or plates on either side are not enough to keep from crushing or shearing through the coosa. It may not happen on assembly, but surely with the boat involved; it does.

Insufficient backing or front plate. Probably can calculate it..

But they may just want to get it to the end of warranty.

The right way to fix it is with more plating after the warranty work, just so you know.

Just do a calculation and get localized loading down to something decent.

You can give me all the current setup and I can tell you what went wrong OR a great boat maker would provide a correction to the bow eye hardware.

But 10:1, there is a compressive failure due to insufficient plate. They may have calculated crushing loads and forgot boats bounce on the trailer mast or the angles changed, etc.

My boat has a special problem that I designed a terrible fix for...so I'm only smart enough via forced errors. But I can tow with the anchor bridle and not my bow eyes at sea...so I have bow eyes, but they are a bit useless and cost like 700 bux.
My boat build is here -------->

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Jaysen
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Re: Gel coat on a big boy toy.

Post by Jaysen »

There were two failures here
1. The factory use low density foam not high density foam.
2. The foam was crushed as the plate was specked for high density foam.

The new plate is the right size for low density core. I’m putting in high density to avoid localized crushing due to over tightening. All done per manufacturer spec and guidance.

It’s nice to just “do what we tell you”. Almost makes me think I should go work for them. Almost.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

Fuzz
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Re: Gel coat on a big boy toy.

Post by Fuzz »

Dang dude you might have found a new trade :lol:

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Jaysen
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Re: Gel coat on a big boy toy.

Post by Jaysen »

The b!$&@ is back.

Trailer loading fun. Stared of as 26” on the starboard bow
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Then you find this. The glass here is 3” per manufacturer info last repair. Owner wants to seal and gel over.
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Letting the surface dry off and we are back to sanding.

As much as I hate to agree with fuzz, folks are paying my to have fun. Looks like I’m in.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Currently working on making a Helms 24 our coastal cruiser.
“Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens” wrote:Eat a live frog first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
Jaysen wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

Fuzz
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Re: Gel coat on a big boy toy.

Post by Fuzz »

Did the factory tell you the glass is 3 inches thick in that area? If so you might look at putting a stainless wear strip there. They could fix the trailer. Or just smile and keep fixing it,it will happen again :wink:

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