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C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:46 pm
by Toms
Hi all,
I hope this is a new post. I've seen some reference in older post, but not exactly the answer or guidance I am looking for.
I love the lines of the C-19 and the freeboard is exactly what I'm looking for and really want that self bailing deck. Where my idea of my perfect boat veers off course with the C-19 is that I want a wide open deck (no console) and I want to run a larger tiller motor with an extension and grab bar to run it standing up. I'm good with the front deck for stowage (casting deck as I see it). Can anyone tell me if the rear bulkhead (front of the splash well) can be trimmed down enough to give the tiller arm room to operate - with no compromising in integrity? I do assume there is room between stern compartments to allow the motor to swing appropriately - but correct me there if I'm wrong.
Thanks!

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:03 pm
by fallguy1000
I can't answer for certain, but the beauty of a full height transom is to keep the skipper dry. Lowering the transom to allow for the tiller is in conflict.

The other problem in a larger boat is placing the helmsman aft can result in making the boat be out of trim and not afford the helsman a windscreen.

If you want to make this change to make the boat more workboat like, for net or pot pulling; I'd understand.

The c19 is really a remarkably nice boat.

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:34 pm
by Fuzz
No matter what a boat is always a compromise. You just have to pick the ones that help you meet your needs. Lots of 22 foot and under around here with tillers. One nice thing is the steering is a lot quicker when needed. If a tiller meets your needs or wants I say build it that way.

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:24 pm
by TomW1
Two things you need to do is buy the long shaft motor which will raise the motor from 20 to 25" and then purchase a tiller extension so that you are sitting more forward in the C19.You may stilll need to add some weight forward to balance the COG. As far as HP I would stick to a 90HP since you want a tiller and that is the lowest 25" shaft available. Both the Yamaha nd Mercury are available with tiller steering in the 90HP motor. If you do need to trim the motor well wall down keep it to a minimum it is designed to keep water that comes over the stern from entering the boat. I will warn you that with tiller steering the USCG would probably limit you to a 70-75HP for tiller steering. Ask Jacques about this or bring to Jeff's attention. I looked up the steering range of the Yaamaha and the Merc 90 for you and it is 35 degrees centerline left or right for Yamaha and Merc did not give theirs.

This is a way away, but planning is always good. For gauges you will need at the minimum a fuel and tachometer. Between these two you can determine best fuel running speed and the tach will help you determine if you have the right prop.

Tom

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:47 pm
by OneWayTraffic
Looking at the Cx19 plans I see no reason why it would not work with a tiller and open deck. I understand the C19 is essentially the same boat, without the cabin.

I'd move weight forward where possible, but it's a big boat and could handle some weight aft in my opinion.

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:51 am
by Toms
Hi all,
Thanks for the helpful replies. Yes, I would plan to use an extended tiller and a stand up grab rail, to move my weight as far forward as possible as well as for visibility while under way. I see some grab rails where a fish finder/GPS and a few other gauges could be mounted while taking up minimal space. I also assume I should move as much "other" weight as far forward as possible, i.e. battery, bow mounted trolling motor and that additional battery, large cooler/fish box up front, plus shift fuel tank a bit forward if possible. Also maybe a factor - I'm not a big guy - only weight 185 -even when I need to lose 10 lbs. I do want this deck open for crab pots and crab trot lining, fly fishing in wind, as well as potentially stringing up a tarp for camping on the boat. I currently have a 21' Mako with a big center console and I'm striving for a much more open "floor plan" on my next boat.
Thanks!

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:57 am
by OrangeQuest
Have you ruled out a mini side console mounted on the side of the boat just behind the casting deck? Will take up a lot less room and really would be a wide-open deck from casting deck to the back of the boat.

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:11 am
by Toms
Hi OrangeQuest,
I wouldn't say I ruled out a small side console aft of the casting deck, but it is not my preference. Actually considered a very small console just ahead of rear bulk head, where the helm seat would actually be a fold-over seat between the rear stowage compartments - very similar to a Jones Brothers Cape Fisherman 1910LT. That cockpit design has my attention, but I do still think my preference is a wide open, tiller steered, simple, "strong as a tank" design - if that doesn't require significant design change OR significantly impact safety. My goal is to have a wide open, simple to maintain boat. Consoles bring controls to break or malfunction and nooks and crannies to clean and maintain.
Thanks!

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:39 am
by Jaysen
Toms, I hear you on that one.

I'll be the opposing view to a few ideas just to make sure you think about some ideas...

1. Anything that may change weight up front shouldn't be part of your base trim. You really want the boat to be trimmed to run well "empty". Use moveable masses to impact running trim.

2. Moving "more forward" kind of seems like a bad idea if you are doing it for "trim" (see number 1). Do it for improved leverage on the motor. Keep in mind you now can't reach the motor controls for FNR and will need a longer kill rope.

3. Grab bar is only useful if you use it all the time. I've seen people dump themselves of the back of a 25hp skiff full throttling to plane while standing up because they didn't have the grab bar in their grasp when they twisted the throttle. Consider something to lean/sit on. Big Boy Motor.

4. Pursuant to #1, consider a water ballast up front. This will allow you to pump water in if you need weight forward (you need to sit on the transom for running) or pump it out to remove weight (filling the coffin!!! or run out a lot of the fuel). it sounds more complicated than it is but will allow you to easily shift loaded trim based on a deck full of crab pots or a cockpit full of people.

There isn't much you can't do with these designs. The key is to keep the base structure intact with at least 3" of bulkhead remaining from the edge (this one is tricky so ask a lot of questions before changing a bulkhead shape). Do NOT modify the singers without consulting with Jacques. Do your best to build light and I'm sure you'll be happy with what you end up with.

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:05 am
by Toms
Jaysen - all great points and exactly why I asked here. I don't know what I don't know, so replies like I'm getting are so helpful. They ensure I consider what I may not have thought of so far.
The water ballast up front does sound complicated - I'll have to take your word for it that it isn't - but will do some research and see what I can learn. Anything I plan/do to modify the basic plan would be run by Jacques first. I won't risk a bad decision without running it by the professionals.
And I hear you loud and clear on the grab bar and associated hazards of throttling up a big motor without hanging on. I'm by no means a speed demon but this boat with the recommended motors certainly has the capability to get up and go and dump the skipper off the back.
One comment from TomW1 - about motor shaft length got my attention. if a 25" shaft would allow tiller clearance without modifying the rear bulkhead, am I correct to assume that it will require me to raise/modify the transom?

Thanks again - great stuff and quite helpful in wrapping my head around things!

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:22 am
by fallguy1000
The long leg is the way to go for sure, and yes, this would require a transom mod.

Horsepower dreams? Do they even have 150 tillers?

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:28 am
by Jaysen
Longer shaft typically requires higher transom if you don't want the prop lower. This adds more questions for Jacques in there...
1. if I raise the transom, do I need to add more glass/core?
2. do I still need the full height forward bulkhead in the motor well?
3. do I need to increase the hight of the knees (motor well sides)?

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:36 am
by Toms
I'll run that transom height/modification by Jacques and see what he comes back with. I've only researched as big as 115hp tiller, but I know the motors are getting bigger. I'm leaning to a Yamaha, 70 or 90, but I see Mercury even makes a motor called a Big Tiller now - so they seem to be catering to a growing market.

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:43 am
by Jaysen
big motors are needed for heavy boats. I would build the hull and get your base weight. You'll find you are MUCH lighter, even built heavy, than commercial all glass hulls.

The drive for bigger motors is really all about consumer ... silliness. Too much structure (center console, living room style seating) is the biggest one. Add the "no wood no rot" stupid driving to solid glass (no core). Then you have my favorite, the "more power" boys (thank you Tim). If you build the boat you are talking about, I think you'll be overpowered with a 90. The boat will handle it, you just won't need it.

I'm a grumpy old man who thinks 9.9 is oversized for my 24' sailboat. So take all that with a couple grains of salt.

:x

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:11 pm
by Toms
As noted above, the Yamaha 70hp is only available in 20" shaft. Will have to go to 90hp to get a 25"shaft. That may limit my options if i truly do need to raise the transom to guarantee tiller clearance.

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:58 pm
by TomW1
Toms wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:05 am
One comment from TomW1 - about motor shaft length got my attention. if a 25" shaft would allow tiller clearance without modifying the rear bulkhead, am I correct to assume that it will require me to raise/modify the transom?

Thanks again - great stuff and quite helpful in wrapping my head around things!
Yes, that will need to be the case. But not the whole transom just the cut out for the motor will need to be raised by 5". But also check the plans that line may also be in them. No other changes are needed due to the strength of the transom.

Tom

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:20 pm
by Toms
TomW1 - your comment - Yes, that will need to be the case. But not the whole transom just the cut out for the motor will need to be raised by 5". But also check the plans that line may also be in them. No other changes are needed due to the strength of the transom.
Perfect, and I assumed that may be the case. I did look at the plans quickly and doing away with the "standard" transom cut-out, (cut it straight across or similar) seems it could easily solve the tiller clearance concern. Next problem is to see if this can be accommodated in production of a CNC kit! I'm planning on going the CNC kit route. It seems simple to me - but not sure if that little change would be a big deal when producing a CNC kit where I'm sure the design is already setup. I just don't know anything about that process...

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:34 pm
by fallguy1000
5.5" there fellas...fyi is all

leg is 5" higher vertical, panel at 12 degrees is 5.5" more panel

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:08 pm
by Matt Gent
TomW1 wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:24 pm Two things you need to do is buy the long shaft motor which will raise the motor from 20 to 25" and then purchase a tiller extension so that you are sitting more forward in the C19….
Tom
25” is XL extra long; 20” is L long shaft.

I think this arrangement would be ultra utilitarian. Like a bigger version of the skiff here:
viewtopic.php?p=495727#p495727

There was an amazing 27 Rambo built with a tiller 150 and a mini console on the back of a central coffin box. I only have one grainy pic though. IMO what the CG thinks for power is irrelevant unless you want to carry passengers for hire. For bigger power a steering damper might be a good idea on longer runs.

I’d consider trim tabs to control pitch underway and help running through chop.

Please build it so we can watch and cheer you on!

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:15 am
by Toms
Matt Gent wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:08 pm
TomW1 wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:24 pm Two things you need to do is buy the long shaft motor which will raise the motor from 20 to 25" and then purchase a tiller extension so that you are sitting more forward in the C19….
Tom
25” is XL extra long; 20” is L long shaft.

I think this arrangement would be ultra utilitarian. Like a bigger version of the skiff here:
viewtopic.php?p=495727#p495727

There was an amazing 27 Rambo built with a tiller 150 and a mini console on the back of a central coffin box. I only have one grainy pic though. IMO what the CG thinks for power is irrelevant unless you want to carry passengers for hire. For bigger power a steering damper might be a good idea on longer runs.

I’d consider trim tabs to control pitch underway and help running through chop.

Please build it so we can watch and cheer you on!
Thanks Matt,
All good thoughts and actually things I've already considered. I've heard torque can be pretty tough on these big tillers, so looking at options to tame that if I find I need it. Same with trim tabs... I'm hoping to build this boat and get it on the water and find out first hand if trim tabs are needed - but they are already in my head. Hope I can add these items after the fact if they are truly needed. Again - I'm set on a simple boat in design and function, with as few gadgets as truly required. The less there is to break, mess with and maintain, the more I like it! My current Mako sits in my driveway more than it's in the water, and still seems to cost me $ every other time I run it.
Thanks!

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:16 pm
by OneWayTraffic
Mercury big tiller has power assist and a hydraulic lock so there's zero torque on your arm. Only way I'd go for anything over 70hp.

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:22 pm
by Toms
Then that starts the new subject of Yamaha vs Mercury - and I have a feeling that has been beat to death on this site! ;-)
I'm leaning toward the Yamaha because I have a little 15hp 4 stroke Yamaha on a little duck boat I built about 20 years ago. Never had a bit of problem with that little kicker and still starts on the 2nd or 3rd pull even after sitting for a few months. On the other hand, I have a Mercury Optimax 115 on my Mako that has caused me stress, confusion and cost $$$ a couple of times every season. I KNOW they both make great motors - I've just had more "fool proof" reliability from my Yamaha than from my Merc. That said - I wish Yamaha would copy the features (you highlighted) of the Merc Big Tiller before I have to buy the motor for this new boat! LOL

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:23 pm
by OneWayTraffic
I'd consider the big tiller a absolutely essential safety feature. Otherwise I'd put a Yamaha 75hp-100hp on her and install a small side console just a metre or two forward of the transom. Very little internal space lost. But I suppose it depends on how strong your arms are, and how well the motor is set up to zero out the torque on the plane.

There are some other options though:

https://www.tillerassist.com

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:32 pm
by TomW1
The Optimax was dead in the water from the day it was designed. Now all Mercury sells is 4sts and they ar very reliable. You have your choice of 3 models, Pro XS, Sea Pro, or Four Stroke, all are good motors. You will see the Pro XS on the Bass tournament boats. Several of the guys on here have gone with Mercs and have had no problems with the new motors.

Tom

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:45 pm
by Toms
OneWayTraffic wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:23 pm I'd consider the big tiller a absolutely essential safety feature. Otherwise I'd put a Yamaha 75hp-100hp on her and install a small side console just a metre or two forward of the transom. Very little internal space lost. But I suppose it depends on how strong your arms are, and how well the motor is set up to zero out the torque on the plane.

There are some other options though:

https://www.tillerassist.com
I've briefly checked into the Tiller Assist unit, but not in depth research yet. I need to get a get handle on how difficult it is to add one after the fact. Again, trying to keep things simple/minimal to start, then add items as I identify they are required. I do understand that sometimes these items will be smarter, easier and often less expensive to add from the get-go - but don't want to add stuff before I feel I need it... when possible. Maybe more reason for me to look at the Merc with an open mind...

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:23 pm
by Jaysen
A lot of folks are still swearing at Mercs. Currently chasing bad coils on a verado. Lower seals on a different verado. I know of many others. I don’t think the failure rate of Yamaha is “lower” on motors that are used like most of the mercs are, I think you don’t have repeated failures (aka higher quality parts). I don’t have a good answer on which is better. I just can’t think of reason other than significant savings that would get me to buy a Merc.

For the record I own 2. Old ones.

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:01 pm
by TomW1
Jaysen doesn't sound like a lot of folks but only 2 Verado's. Toms there are 3 motor builders out there with almost the same reliability numbers. All of them can build a dog on a bad day out of the factory but those are few and far between and are usually caught before they leave for the dealer. They are in alpha order Merc, Suzuki, Yamaha. I have no favorites among them, they are all good motors. In my neck of the woods Merc is dominant, then Suzuki. Same out at our cabin on the Mississippi. Have not seen a Yamaha in 20 years in either place. But Yamahas are great motors, and I highly can recommend them as I have a 75HP 2st on my OD18.

Tom

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:17 pm
by BarraMan
I'll put my cards on the table - I am currently a card carrying Yamaha man. I have two of them, a 40 hp 4 stroke and a 250 vmax SHO 4 stroke. They have both served me well and I luv'em. In the past I have owned Mercs and Suzukis!

My fishing buddy, who is a former pro-fisher and ticketed O/B mechanic, currently runs a Yamaha dealership but is a very honest broker if asked a question. He says that in the past Mercs have had a bad reputation but the new generation Mercs are impressive motors. Yamahas have legendary reliability are are favoured by commercial fishers in this part of the world. He says they have the best anti-corrosion by far. Suzukis are also good motors by have corrosion issues. Obviously not an issue if you are running in fresh water!

As I have said before, its a bit like, "Are you a GM, Ford or Chrysler man? !!! 8O :lol:

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:33 am
by Jaysen
I think TomW1 is freshwater. Barraman and I are salt. Yamaha is the most common motors by far here.

TomW, I know mentioned the ones I’m working with right now. These motors are repeat offenders. There are more. It’s telling to me that the only Merc shop in the area is 8mo wait for motor work. The Yamaha shop is 3 weeks. Looking at our 200slip marina there are only small Merc outboards on a 3 sailboats. Every other outboard on any boat is Yamaha or Honda. I agree that Merc motors are much more reliable in the last decade, but they still seem to have a lower adoption and higher rate of time in the shop IN MY AREA. Salt may be a factor in that.

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:25 pm
by TomW1
Salt vs. fresh may be a factor but I have seen some pretty big Merc's on saltwater boats also. that go years without problems. I guess it is just the luck of the draw and the upkeep, like maybe flushing after docking is more important with a Merc, I do not know what the answer is, but agree with Jaysen you see a lot more of our guys putting Yamaha's and Suzuki's on in saltwater than Merc's. Though some do put Merc's on.

Tom

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:36 pm
by Toms
This boat will be used in both fresh and salt - but definitely more salt water. And the motor debate can go back and forth forever. If I buy a Merc and have 1 single issue with it - I will always know "I should have stuck with my gut and got that Yamaha". If I get the Yamaha and deal with torque, I'll wish I had gone with the Merc. I still have some time to research and some dealers to talk to before I make the decision. On the bright side - it's good to know I have some great options and shopping and learning about the motors will be fun! And frustrating! And stressful! And confusing! But mostly fun!

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:37 pm
by Jaysen
I don’t think you can really go wrong IF you have a good service option near by. Every manufacturer will break at some point. Keep track of maintenance and warranty should you need it. No matter which motor you buy, if you start having significant issues early, request a replacement. Check with the shop and manufacturers on their policies.

I’m looking forward to seeing how this goes.

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:52 pm
by TomW1
I agree Jaysen, it is so important to pick a motor that has a competent shop. There was an article a couple years back comparing reliability of the motors and there was very little difference among the major brands, they even had Evinrude in there and while it was last the percentages of difference were small. But Toms do whatever you feel is right for you and the boat you are building. I love the C19 she is a great boat and can handle offshore waters. With a tiller you will need to be careful with what you get into but keep us posted as your build proceeds. We love pictures. Tom

Re: C19 with a tiller...

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:40 am
by Toms
Yep - in the end, it's a boat. I know stuff will break and need service beyond my mechanical abilities. Finding the best shop is key to having a good experience or being totally frustrated. I do plan to do some homework in that department... revisit some shops I worked with in the past and visit some new ones that I've not been to yet. I'll make my decision on motor and dealer from there.
I am in the process of getting my Mako sold and as soon as I complete that (next few weeks hopefully), I will likely order the kit. Will definitely post pics and questions along the way. The crew on this forum seem genuinely interested and "invested" in the success and safety of other builders projects. That's very cool to find these days!