FL14 "Robjack" update

[fishingdan]

I'm a bit confused by your comment on the use of screws. On page 2 of the building notes, under 'Assembly', it says: "Fasten the frame to the side panels. Fastening can be done with screws or staples. Stitching or taping are other acceptable methods."

I bought some bronze screws especially to do this job, and a special countersinking bit to ensure a straight and true pilot hole for the screws. Why will the use of screws result in an unfair hull? Should I forget about using them?

Screwing a panel to a frame can result in a distortion of the side panel if you are not careful. You will get the best results by loosely stitching the hull together with nylon cable ties or wire. The resulting natural bend in the panel is what the designer is counting on to provide the nice hull shape. When screws are used, the result is often that the panels are too tightly attached to the frames and, as a result, the side panels will be distorted.

It also sounds like you were planning on leaving the screws in. That is not necessary and not recommended. As you glass the seams, it is best to remove any screws and stitches.

Dan

[fishingdan]

This is pretty much what I was going to do. Should I try to serve the fillet mixture out of a ziplock bag like a cake decorator? I was thinking doing that then smoothing it with a spoon would be a good way to do it. I am not so sure the bag thing will work though.

I assume I am going to do corner to corner and not corner the tape at 90 degrees.

Steve,

Applying the fillet material with a bag works well. Once it is layed down, then you go back with a spoon (or whatever you plan to use) to shape the fillet.

Yes, you should lay the tape corner to corner.

Regarding how much epoxy to mix. Be careful. Mixing larger batches will not increase the working time. In fact, it will do the opposite. Larger batches generate more heat. You will have less working time. This can result in a batch of epoxy "going off".

I worked through last winter (Norfolk, MA) with slow and medium hardeners. The benefit of working in cooler weather is that you get longer working times. The downside, is you develop "cold weather" epoxy habits. When it warms up, you can get caught off guard with the smaller working times.

Early last summer, I was getting in a hurry to finish my boat and started working on the console. I mixed up a batch of epoxy thinking I was going to coat the entire console with one mixture of epoxy. I didn't make it. The larger batch went off after about 8 minutes and because it was a larger batch it went off fast. Within a moment of time it went from a liguid to a thick glob and became smoking hot (literally). I am probably not a good candidate for boat building in FL.

[Steve_MA]

I bought some bronze screws especially to do this job, and a special countersinking bit to ensure a straight and true pilot hole for the screws. Why will the use of screws result in an unfair hull? Should I forget about using them? Confused

Mike, I started looking to use the screws first - before I saw Jacques post. I was going to drill pilot holes so (a) the screw did not bite the side panel and (b) center the screw into the 3/8" frame. After drilling a couple pilots in the frame by hand and trying both course thread and fine thread drywall screws I had, it was pretty clear that either (a) I would not be able to get it centered without some kind of jig and/or drill press and (b) even if I did get it centered, the screw might easily pop out the side if stressed.

I switched with cable ties and it worked great. The hull came out pretty square and was quite and easy to put it all together.

I havent really decided whether or not the stitches will stay or go....probably some of both. I dont think it matters to leave them - or parts of them in since they will be totally covered by epoxy anyway. I kept my holes within about 1/2 of the joint so the fillets will cover the stitch.

One thing that did have me wondering for a while (during the stitch process) was with frame 3 I think it is. When I install all the frames (upside down) I tried to line up the bottom of the frame with the bottom of the side panel. All the frames and hull curves seemed to look pretty good except frame 3 which didnt seem to fit quite as well as the others. I chalked up to being a bit off on a cut, but I think its actually because frame 3 is sized to accomodate the butt block - I bet when I move it 3/8" down it will look better.

The other thing immesley useful, something to keep the transom area together when you stitch the box. I had a couple of 50lb weights - you probably need something equivalent to about 5 gallons of water for each side. I just rested the structure on the ground with a couple 2x4s underneath and that was all I needed.

The only other tricky part was getting it square. I initially had a support under the transom but that was no good. I found one support under each side panel at the transom end and 1 piece under the bow a nice 3 point support for the assembly. I would pick it up at the transom end, jiggle it around and set it down carefully, check for square, tighten up all the stitches. Frankly if it was really out of square - not sure what I would have done.

Good luck!

[Lon]

"I'm a bit confused by your comment on the use of screws. On page 2 of the building notes, under 'Assembly', it says: "Fasten the frame to the side panels. Fastening can be done with screws or staples. Stitching or taping are other acceptable methods."

Mike, all you're trying to do is hold the frames TEMPORARILY in the correct position in relation to the side panels so that they may be PERMANENTLY fused with fillet and tape.

Read here: http://bateau2.com/content/view/46/28/

[Mike Adams]

Steve, Dan

Thanks very much for the tips, guys. I will take your advice and go with the cable ties for attaching the frames to the sides.

I note that the plans state that the midseat frame (bowside) is dimensioned to allow for the butt block. Since the frames are installed with the hull upside down and the tops of the frames level with the tops of the sides, I presume that the correct alignment for that frame should happen automatically.

Boy, I'm glad I sat up late last night and read the forum posts before I got stuck into assembly today! This has to be the best boating site on the internet!

It's a glorious summer morning here in Canberra - gotta go now and build me a boat!

[jacquesmm]

There are many ways to keep the frames in place while assembling the hull but remember that the goal is to shape the hull by letting the panels take their natural shape.
You can use screws but don't drive them all the way down, do not create a flat.
I like duct tape, it is often sufficient on a boat like a FL14 or FL11.
If you use screws, they will not bite in the 3/8 frame. You can add little temporary blocks where you put the screws.
Cable ties are OK too but I stick to my duct tape.
One last method we used was to cut 2x4" of the exact spacing between the frames and drive a nail through the spacers. Works but heavy.
One last thing, you can build the boat upside down or right side up but in all cases you will have to help those panels with some blocks. They are thin and tend to wobble. The hull looks scary at that stage, really flimsy but with all the fiberglass, seats and rubrail it will become very solid.

[Mike Adams]

Mike, all you're trying to do is hold the frames TEMPORARILY in the correct position in relation to the side panels so that they may be PERMANENTLY fused with fillet and tape.Read here: http://bateau2.com/content/view/46/28/

Lon

Thanks- yes, I understand the technique, but I was a bit confused because whereas the DE23 is assembled as a hull 'shell' with the frames and stringers permanently installed only after flipping, the assembly of the FL14 starts off by positioning the frames and attaching them to the sides. I thought the assembly instructions were telling me to screw or staple the frames permanently in place before fusing with the fillet and tape. I'll go with the cable ties.

[Mike Adams]

One last thing, you can build the boat upside down or right side up but in all cases you will have to help those panels with some blocks. They are thin and tend to wobble. The hull looks scary at that stage, really flimsy but with all the fiberglass, seats and rubrail it will become very solid.

Thanks, Jacques. Boy, I'm glad you told me that before I got started with the assembly - I'm scared enough as it is!

[Steve_MA]

Today I stitched the bottom, flipped the hull and admired how good it looked. Then I started setting up some supports to make it stable for epoxy, tape etc and realized it wasnt so easy. Then I took out my tape measure and found out I went from 1/2 out of square betore the bottom went on to 1" out of square now. 6 hours later, after taking out and reistalling all the frames, and finally getting a good support in place, I got my 1/2 back and I am ready to move on. But tomorrow I think.

Update photos http://photos.yahoo.com/eabsjw

And I was just telling my wife how everything was going pretty close to plan; I must have jinxed myself

[Steve_MA]

And so here are the fillets from my first crack at it

I used a 1 qt plastic bag to bead the stuff out. It was had to get into the bag and the batch only lasted for about 15" before I had to start fussing with it at which point, things broke down fast.....ie got real messy. Its amazing how much wood flour it takes...and i think I could have even made it thicker.

Shaped with 2 1/2 PVC which worked great. Wetted out with 3" roller which worked well. Got the bubbles out and wetted out final areas with plastic fiberglass thingy (squeege?). That all worked pretty well.

I dont think I need to touch these again until I come back and cover the whole inside with cloth, except to sand down the edges and clean out the messy bits.

Do I need to fill the weave before I put down the covering cloth? I dont think so....