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New designs or changes, how to get it done.

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:40 am
by jacquesmm
Instead of discussing changes ad nauseam, why don't we discuss the boat you really want?
There is a method to it:
1. Try to describe the boat and it's program in a short sentence. For example, a power boat that a family of 4 would mostly use to go to the inlet beach on week-ends and occasionally for inshore fishing. Or, a sailboat for week-end cruises able to go to Catalina Island in moderate weather and accomodate 4 for up to a week. Try your own but keep it short.
That description will force you to make some choices because you can't have it all in one boat.
2. Set your budget realistically with a time table for expenditures.
3. Select a building material and method.


All those factors influence each other: if your budget is $ 10,000.00 over 3 years and you want a 31' inboard to run to the canyon, you have a problem. Solve that problem before arguing about the boat's layout on this board. :doh:
Once you have a clear program defined with the elements above, see if one of our boats fits the bill. If not, post a message with your program and we will respond.
We take realistic demands for a new design seriously
but we can not make the big investment that a new design requires unless we feel that the project is well thought and feasible.

About changes:
Some changes are simply impossible, technically impossible.
You can ask it as many times as you want but to put a big inboard diesel in a hull that is designed to be light will not work. Even if you squeeze the engine in there, the performance will be bad and we do not want to design that change.
Imagine that you want a Lamborghini but ask the factory to put a Caterpillar diesel in there. That's what is asked here sometimes and we can't do that, take our word for it please. But we can design a good boat with a diesel engine if you request something reasonable.
Put it another way and say:
" I want a boat with the accomodations of the DE25 but with a diesel engine , a top speed of 30 mph and a 200 NM range. My budget is $ 10,000.00 over 2 years."

We will respond: can do but budget must be $ 25,000.00 unless you reduce top speed to 12 mph or will install a used diesel.
And we can go from there.
Inboards will show up this year, several of them but we are listening to your request for more designs.

Think in terms of requrements

Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:21 pm
by JustRight
Think in terms of requrements

Over the years of thinking about building a trailerable sailboat, I began to formulate a set of requirements which formed the basis of selecting a design. Ultimately, these lead to the selection of the Vagabond. As you can see, these requirements are just a little more abstract than what Jacques is suggesting above. To reduce these to a simple numbered list took some thinking on by part and hopefully reduced the chances of a nebulous, and potentially conflicting want list. I tried to phrase each requirement as "testable" so that potential designs could be checked with the requirements for compliance.

Interestingly, when I finished the boat, I went back to check off the result against the requirements. I published both the requirements and my after completion analysis at my web site, Project Just Right. In the second chapter, I went on to discuss the preparation before starting the construction. The web site is not currently available, awaiting restoration of the bateaus server. Check it out when the web site returns.


My requirements:

1. Small, trailerable, performance cruising boat, fun to sail, reasonable range under power, occasional club racing
2. Easy to rig and trailer
3. Normal crew of one or two, occasional day sails with up to four
4. Only two bunks needed
5. Floatation for full displacement (floatation in kayak style buoyancy bags may be counted)
6. Normal storage on trailer in 20'x 8'x 6'10" garage
7. Have feeling of "yacht" interior
8. Sufficiently sea worthy to take on short offshore trips in reasonable weather (California Channel Islands, Baja, Pacific Northwest)
9. Good human factors used in layout
10. Target cost including materials, trailer, outboard, all other parts of $10-12,000

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:41 am
by Gubbs
Or you could just look at her and know you want her, like I did with the GT-23. Sometimes instincts are right on....

DE25 changes

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:26 pm
by anonymous
Sorry, I read your message about describing the boat we want rather than changes after I sent my message on DE25 modifications.

I live in central Florida on the Harris chain of lakes. These nine lakes connect to canals and rivers that are navigable in all directions to Tampa in the Gulf or the Florida Keys, or the Atlantic in Jacksonville. There are hundreds of miles of waterways. I need a shallow draft and living space comfortable enough to spend a couple of weeks on board. I may also want a cabin that I can economically air condition.

If I remained only on the rivers and small lakes, I could do it very comfortably in a houseboat, but, I would like to be able to move through the keys or offshore a ways (in good weather) in the Atlantic.

I really like the looks of the DE25 and the Trawler28. Only the DE25 has the draft I need and if the modifications I have mentioned are feasible, then I believe it will work very well for me.

Please comment, all suggestions are appreciated.

Bill-Odell

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:06 am
by Leon_Steyns
OK, I'll give it a try:

Program: fast 2+2 family day boat/camp cruiser for occasional nights on board, easy to build, simple rig (maybe even unstayed - though I personally feel a sailboat needs a main+jib), shallow draft for gunkholing, some form of cabin or tent for shelter/nights, some stowage for gear (even maybe Origo-style burner, simple bucket-style 'sink'), outboard optional, rowing preferable.
Buget: low, something like $5000 top
Material/method: cheap plywood, S&G

Some explanantion, don't get me wrong: I really like my Caravelle and I plan on using and learing her first!!! But through the process of building, some requirement shifts occurred back and forth. Serious accomodations require a big boat, however. This is out of reach for me right now, both financially and practically.

The 2+2 means two adults and two kids maximum. I'm looking for a mooring now, because it takes about half hour to rig the Caravelle from the trailer and that sort of rules out evening sailing... :cry: With a little luck, I could get a cheap mooring within 20min drive from my house.
When it comes to sailboats, I have this persistent preference for a main+jib. Could that be a cultural thing? I do like the gunter rig, because of it's simplicity and the fact that you can use shorter spars. But I also fancy a jib... :doh:
Because of the inland lakes and rivers that I mostly sail on, shallow draft is a must. An open dayboat like the Caravelle has no facilities for a shelter, other than to rig a quick boomtent. This is fine if I need temporary shelter from rain showers, but not for overnight camping. Nothing fancy is needed, but sometimes the rain showers go on for days... :help:
I don't care for headroom, but it would be nice to be able to sit. The Caravelle is very comfortable, particularly when you sit leaning against the cuddy deck on the benches facing aft.

I'm quite intrigued and attracted to Philip Bolger's Birdwatcher concept, having read the Woodenboat #179 article by Mason Smith. What is your opinion on that design?

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:41 am
by ArizonaBuilder
Leon,

Except for the rowing aspect, what about the AD16. :)

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:20 pm
by Leon_Steyns
Hello Terry,

The AD16 is a very nice design, but I would still prefer the SoDuIt! (for which I already own the plans). The SDI! is not "rowable" either. To be honest, I'm lazy enough to admit that I'm most likely to carry an outboard motor (you know, my Seagull! :roll: :lol: ).

But both these designs I'd consider as two-seaters, despite the enormous amount of space in the AD16:
Image

I guess I'm looking for something more unconventional... :doh:
Cost-wise the AD16 fits the bill perfectly, though. Both Adelies are very well thought-of designs!

Good thinking!

By the way: does anyone know what happened to the New Zealand builder who started "Arpita" (a stretched 17' SDI!)? The website is still up, but no changes as far as I can tell (http://www.sigma-services.co.nz/arpita/arpita.html).

[Edited to add:
Come to think of it; Terry, you hit the nail on the head! Both AD14 and AD16 fit my program description... :idea:
So, my boat is already out there... It just took a while for me to realize it... :doh: :P 8O ]

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:07 pm
by anonymous
Hey,
Great question!!
I have been looking on all sites with plans, looking for something that fits what I want, so here it goes:

1. 22-24' x 8' (or 8'+) beam
2. Modified vee, for inshore and near shore fishing
3. Center console
4. Front casting deck
5. Full transom that could accept a porta bracket and therefore would be an out board engine
6. Transom cap wide enought to stand on and cast or throw a net
7. Able to accept a console tower
8. Approx. 36" wide console with the ability to flush mount electronics
9. Wide gunwales
10. Plenty of storage
11. Stitch and glue
12. Max of $15k with rigging/engine and all



Wide, stable, roomyMainly West Coat of FL fishing boat.

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:01 pm
by anonymous
I am looking at building something like your DE25, only problem is I want it in an inboard diesel. Is therre a possibiliy for that? With plenty of space for a small gen set and A/C unit? I live in SW FL and it is hot as hell here in the summer, some comforts would be needed to mae a weekend trip enjoyable. I am looking to run 90 to 100 miles off shore with good weather etc.

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:58 am
by jacquesmm
The 22 to 24' boat above is our CS23.

We are working on designs with inboard diesels.

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:05 am
by anonymous
The CS 23/25 is an awesome looking boat, but I'm not sure it was what was being reffered to in the previous post. They seem more like a serious offshore boat. The CS design would be INCREDIBLE in a 27-30' design. :D

I have a feeling what was being referred to was things like:
the 1969-1978 Aquasport 222
the Early 70's Mako 22 or 23
or
http://www.sheaffermarine.com/SB_main.htm
http://www.gausebuiltboats.com/
http://doradomarine.com/ourboats_files/ ... k_GIF.html

All have lower freeboard and are more acclimated to bay fishing with a little bit of off shore capability.

14 Feet Outboard Powered Stitch And Glue Catamaran

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:32 pm
by anonymous
Catamarans do have some unique qualities including great stability and a relatively more deckspace compared to same length monohulls. Glen-l offers 3 catamaran designs, the Jetcat, Hellcat and Aquacat (lengths 14, 16 and 18 feet respectively). These designs are built by the plywood on frames method.

Without success I have been searching the internet for similar catamaran designs meant to be built by the stitc'n'glue method. In fact the previously mentioned designs are the only small outboard catamarans designs I have been able to find. :doh:

I would like Bateau.com to offer 14, 16, and 18 feet outboard powered catamarans designed to be built by the stitc'n'glue method. :idea:

Best regards,

Narcissus
Reykjavik
Iceland

Cats are cool

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:29 pm
by anonymous
I would like Bateau.com to offer 14, 16, and 18 feet outboard powered catamarans designed to be built by the stitc'n'glue method.


I second that! Only I would like to see a little bit bigger one, 25ish. Just so there is a cabin and gallery. With the stitch and glue construction.
Derrick
Coos Bay, OR

add-on to CD 23/25 discussion

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:48 pm
by anonymous
Anonymous wrote:The CS 23/25 is an awesome looking boat, but I'm not sure it was what was being reffered to in the previous post. They seem more like a serious offshore boat. The CS design would be INCREDIBLE in a 27-30' design. :D

I have a feeling what was being referred to was things like:
the 1969-1978 Aquasport 222
the Early 70's Mako 22 or 23
or
http://www.sheaffermarine.com/SB_main.htm
http://www.gausebuiltboats.com/
http://doradomarine.com/ourboats_files/ ... k_GIF.html

All have lower freeboard and are more acclimated to bay fishing with a little bit of off shore capability.
Great site!

I really like the styling of the CS 23/25 and would like to see plans for the same boat in the 18 - 20' range. As the previous question was posed, I would like a boat for inshore with some near shore use with the flared bow and tumblehome transom. I would also like a closed transom with bracket for outboard.

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:39 pm
by anonymous
Any future plans for the CS23 style with more bow flair? Something that could be cold molded? And an option for a small diesel inboard? Could this plan be scaled down to 21-22 ft? If I wanted a plan like this how would I go about getting it? Thanks, great site.

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:01 pm
by OffshrAngler
Well it can be scaled down by 10%.

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:50 am
by jacquesmm
Anonymous wrote:Any future plans for the CS23 style with more bow flair? Something that could be cold molded? And an option for a small diesel inboard? Could this plan be scaled down to 21-22 ft? If I wanted a plan like this how would I go about getting it? Thanks, great site.
If you pay for the development of the plan, we'll start it right away. Our cots to develop a new plan in that size is US $ 3,000.00.
BTW, it will not be cold molded but sheated strip orm foam sandwich can be considered.

A less expensive solution is to add the flare yourself, it is easy.
We show how to create a moderate flare, it's just a matter of increasing it.

new boat plans

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:50 pm
by anonymous
I would be very interested in a flats/bayboat that is a marriage of your Carolina Sportfish design and your Phantom line up. I live and fish in Eastern NC in the Pamlico Sound and its tributaries for trout, drum, tarpon, etc and while I woule love to build a phantom for shallow water use, I do not feel that I would be comfortable crossing the rough bodies of water that I must cross with that but--a larger boat with a big bow is more favorable--but once I get to where the fish are---a big boat is a pain and is not the best tool. I am thinking of a carolina styled flats/bay boat in the 18-20ft range with a low deadrise aft section and a sharp fore entry and flared bow and dropped shearline along the lines of the bayshore boats built in wilmington w/o the heart stopping price tag. I have spent the past couple of days trying to figure out if I could modify the phantom to fit my idea in stitch and glue. Just an idea of what I am looking for.

Flat bottom Duck Skiff for the MUD.

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:04 pm
by edaskew
Jacques,
Saw your invitation to post a question about needed designs for new duckboats on duckboats.net

http://www.duckboats.net/forum/messages/47809.html

South Louisianians are big duckhunters but we can't use a V-bottom boat, even a shallow V. We hunt in mud, or at least run through pure mud getting to the pond. I love those boats just like your duckskiff 15, and designed and built my own boat (which I think is a nice shape, but, it's an amateurish heavy overbuilt boat) that incorporates some of the features of that sort of hull, but is flat bottommed. I copied the bottom profile of the IR skiff. It works very well for me, and when I pull into a gas station or boat launch down in Cajun country I often draw a crowd. I keep getting asked if I have plans for sale. We need a flat bottomed decked boat capable of handling a 200lb 25hp (18hp at the prop) mudmotor on the transom, that's fast (we go a long way) and light. The Gator duckhunter (gatorboats.com) almost does the trick, but it doesn't plane well. Modified versions, where the width of the bottom of the boat is the same at amidships as it is at the transom, have worked well for some. We hunt protected waters. I'm not building another one myself, but I know there's a lot of interest out there from my gas station and boat launch experiences. Check out my boat:

www.angelfire.com/ultra/edaskew/peregrine.html

Ed.

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:50 am
by jacquesmm
I will look at that Gator boat. We will design more duck boats.

Re: new boat plans

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:16 pm
by tech_support
gcredle wrote:I would be very interested in a flats/bayboat that is a marriage of your Carolina Sportfish design and your Phantom line up. I live and fish in Eastern NC in the Pamlico Sound and its tributaries for trout, drum, tarpon, etc and while I woule love to build a phantom for shallow water use, I do not feel that I would be comfortable crossing the rough bodies of water that I must cross with that but--a larger boat with a big bow is more favorable--but once I get to where the fish are---a big boat is a pain and is not the best tool. I am thinking of a carolina styled flats/bay boat in the 18-20ft range with a low deadrise aft section and a sharp fore entry and flared bow and dropped shearline along the lines of the bayshore boats built in wilmington w/o the heart stopping price tag. I have spent the past couple of days trying to figure out if I could modify the phantom to fit my idea in stitch and glue. Just an idea of what I am looking for.
Maybe you need more of a bay boat type hull. more dead through the entire hull and a fine entry with some flair. Is the "carolina" look super important to you? My phantom will float VERY shallow, I was drifting over a sand bar in 5" last night and didnt have to get out to push - but coming home in a 20 mph wind and true 2' chop..... well it was wet and rough.

Growing up with the same sort of waters you are talking about (sounds and tidal rivers) I would not pick a flats boat as my primary fishing boat. You really don’t need the super shallow draft, so you can trade that for a better ride in chop.

Look at the OB17. you could add casting decks - just a thought
:D

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:13 pm
by anonymous
For my next boat I'd like something like the OB19 but scaled up about 10%. It would still be more economical to build and operate than the C21 or a scaled down CS23 but also would be very versatile. You could fish fairly shallow and still go offshore on nice days. It would be good for snorkeling, diving, and waterskiing. The scaled up version would have the extra room being about 8' wide instead of 7'4" and about 21' long. I love the style and it would be alot easier to build but I wouldn't think of scaling it up myself.

GOOD DUCK BOAT TO CONSIDER

Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 10:32 pm
by anonymous
Jacquesmm

Here is a link to a Carsten's duck boat that would appeal to many duck hunters. Very shallow V with pointy nose for rough waves and a large capacity. Around 12' so it's small and light enough to go in the back of a pickup and not require a trailer. Would move pretty good with a 9 horse as rated, but would be okay with around a 4 to 5 horse. Many duck hunters use an old 4 hp Johnson weedless outboard design so that's a motor to keep in mind. The prop on these is tilted about 30 degrees to the horizontal and pitched like a screw thread to go through crap and not get hung up. It's a poorman's GoDevil since you can pick them up for about $300 on Ebay.

http://ducklogic.com/cont/prd/_clb/blu.html

Heres a link to a very old plywood on frame plan in a similar style.

http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=RowBoats/SneakBox

These boats would fill a nice spot in your current line up. Many hunters have to traverse big water to get to some shallow areas and need to haul two guys, dog and gear in rough weather, but still don't want to have to trailer a dedicated duck boat to do it. You can hang this from the garage ceiling in the offseason and not take up garage floor area.

I built a Gator boats DragonFly, but it's too heavy for the size and the design is not good for rough water. I'd build a boat of the above design. And I am still considereing building the one in the old plan, but a stich and glue design would be lighter/stonger.

Here is a link to the boat I built. It will do for awhile, but I would build another if the design was better for my purposes.

http://www.southernsportingdesigns.com/ ... .php?t=587

changes XF-20 or GF-18 or GF-16

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:12 am
by MICKEYOGS
I have been reading these message pages for a while and find them very interesting and informative. But, this is the 1st time I have written any thing so here goes.
I have a pretty firm idea of the type and use of the boat I want so I will try to describe
MY CRITERIA
- type Jon boat very stable underway and at rest
- LOA 16-18 ft ( 18 ft MAX )
- Tunnel Hull - tunnel same as that in your XF-20
-Bottom Width - widest possible to compliment the shallowest draft
possible and the best wetted surface for peformance
on plane
-Beam - to compliment bottom width & design
- Side Depth - 20 inches or less (I'm guessing about the same as the
XF-20)
- Weight - as light as possible w/o compromising hull strength and
stifness
- Transom - suitable to carry Jack Plate with 6 inch offset from transom
and 6 inch height of rise with MAX 25 hp tiller steer
- Outboard - tiller steer MAX 25 hp but I would like to use 15 hp
or 20 hp and be able to plane w/ 3 persons
on board I will be using 4 blade double
cupped prop which seems to greatly
increase performance w/tunnel & jack
plate I suspect this maybe wishing
for pie in the sky
- Front Casting patform/deck able to accept bow mount trolling motor
- Interior layout exactly the same as the Yellow XF-20 in your photos
open under the seats, cooler inserted in center seat, etc
- Use - fishing on inshore protected waters around mangrove islands &
oyster bars VERY SHALLOW
- Water - protected inshore shallows and fresh water lakes
Ideally I guess I am looking for your XF-20 scaled down in all dimensions to a 16 footer. But, I do not know if you have such a scaling down of your plans or if you can do so. I know it sounds like I should just build the XF-20, but I have fished with Capt Henderson in his 20ft micro-draft boat. I find it to be just too big. I currently have an AL Jon boat 18ft w/6ft bottom width, it too is just too big and heavy 750lb hull
weight w/o my 40hp outboard. I really want something smaller and lighter, that will be more maneuveralbe in the mangroves, plane with less hp and be more responsive to bow mount trolling motor.
Short of the XF-20 I have looked at your GF-18 + 16. I don't know the bottom width dimension for either. I guess I might be able to come close by using the 2ft scale on the screen. I have read in these messages that you can add a tunnel to plans for either. Would the added tunnel be the same design as that in the XF-20? What is the bottom width and the side heights for the GF-18+16?? Looking at the spec's I am a bit confussed by the differential in listed weight between the GF-18 @ 475lb and the GF-16 @ 165lb why is there such a large differential??
I need guidance. Which of your designs would best satisfy my criteria - Jon boat; very shallow running and floating; very stable;
tunnel hull; able to plane with low 15-25 hp; 16-18ft MAX LOA
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME AND CONSIDERATION

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 1:26 am
by timoub007
Mikeyogs,

J may reply or may not as he is not too fond of a tunnel on a narrow boat. I had the same requirements as you and years of experience in my aluminum 16x48 tunnel. I am nearly finished with my GF-16T and should get it wet within the next week. My build can be seen at the link in my signiture.

Reply to my thread or email with questions.

Tim

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:02 am
by jacquesmm
That describes the GF18 with a tunnel.
We will, on request, send the XF20 drawings with the GF18 plans.
I am not in favor of that modification because it represents a lot of troubles to reduce the draft of a boat that draws only 5" as designed.

THANKS

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:53 pm
by MICKEYOGS
wish to thank both of you Timoub007 & jacquesmm for such speedy reply and for sharing your information
this message board is a great resource and a lot of fun

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 10:22 am
by jacquesmm
I ddi not respond to the duck boat link but I'm looking at it.
More duck boats are on the list.

New boat design?

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:53 pm
by anonymous
I would like to see a boat along the lines of the V-12 only lengthened to 16ft. Keep the beam the same. Must row easily but be able to take a SMALL outboard. (3.5 to 6 hp.) Keep a center seat for the single rower but add a rear and forward seat also. A nice riding, slow, seaworthy little boat for fishing quiet bays... My $0.02 worth.

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 2:07 pm
by anonymous
How about a RIB (24 foot or so)

You could develop the plans for the hull, and then arrange for the tube set to manugactured by an outside supplier and only available through you. When the customer pays, it would be direct ship from the supplier.

That could be the business model.

As for the need I would like a boat well suited for towing (tow boat not a tug) and high capacity. New boats are 50-100k and require many years of service to provide a return. This same boat could appeal to divers, SOLAS, and sportfishers.

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:38 pm
by stickystuff
Some excellent reading on a catamaran boat .
www.mayaparadise.com/stories/that/thatindex.htm

You think we have it tough building a boat. Read this article. Excellent. You won't be able to stop reading. This guy is a master builder. :D :D

Re: New boat design?

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:58 am
by jacquesmm
Guest wrote:I would like to see a boat along the lines of the V-12 only lengthened to 16ft. Keep the beam the same. Must row easily but be able to take a SMALL outboard. (3.5 to 6 hp.) Keep a center seat for the single rower but add a rear and forward seat also. A nice riding, slow, seaworthy little boat for fishing quiet bays... My $0.02 worth.
That boat exist:
http://boatplans-online.com/proddetail.php?prod=OT16