Steve's PH22

[jacquesmm]

Thanks Tom. I think that we discussed that earlier when we met in NC but you are correct, I don't want to design boats for those speeds. Thirty years ago, I worked as an engineer for Cigarette and know what is involved. I also worked as engineering manager for Pursuit and until this day, that company builds excellent all composite boats but Cigarette or Pursuit never use cored bottoms. Cored bottoms are fine for smaller boats, perfect for quiet small units like the LM18, FS17 etc. It's great too for larger but slower boats like the LB26. I gave foam specs for the CS25 but have reservations about using Divynicell, Corecell is fine.

There is another problem with a flats boat at very high speed. The USCG has a bunch of requirements that my designs satisfy but if someone uses a larger motor and goes faster, that boat will fail what we call the slalom. The USCG/ABYC rules requires the boat to be able, at tops speed, to run a course between buoys. Flats boats skid in turns and can not do that slalom when overpowered. It is a matter of safety.
I ran Cigarette boats at more than 100 mph but I get scared in a flats boat going 50.

[ProfzrX]

ProfrsX Why do you keep insisting on a 250HP motor, are you build this for bass tournaments? Jacques just said he would give you the laminating schedule for a 125HP but not for a 250HP motor. Like I posted above a 250HP will give you speeds around 70mph, speeds that Jacques does not design his boats for as he does not want to take the liability for. If you want to add extra glass to the outer and inner hull and beef up the transom, that is your choice and your responsibility and your liability.

Did I miss a follow-up response with him stating this? As a matter of fact, he stated the complete opposite. To include two alternative lamination schedules that he claimed he would send. He only stated that it would not be possible to use divinycell foam core from the chines to the keel and that he would likely put in a disclaimer. No, I will not be fishing bass tournaments, I like to challenge myself lol. I will be fishing inshore tournaments and know what kind of performance I need out of a boat.









































P

[TomW1]

ProfrsX Why do you keep insisting on a 250HP motor, are you build this for bass tournaments? Jacques just said he would give you the laminating schedule for a 125HP but not for a 250HP motor. Like I posted above a 250HP will give you speeds around 70mph, speeds that Jacques does not design his boats for as he does not want to take the liability for. If you want to add extra glass to the outer and inner hull and beef up the transom, that is your choice and your responsibility and your liability.

Did I miss a follow-up response with him stating this? As a matter of fact, he stated the complete opposite. To include two alternative lamination schedules that he claimed he would send. He only stated that it would not be possible to use divinycell foam core from the chines to the keel and that he would likely put in a disclaimer. No, I will not be fishing bass tournaments, I like to challenge myself lol. I will be fishing inshore tournaments and know what kind of performance I need out of a boat.

Yes you messed up he is only giving you a 1. laminating schedule for the bottom and 2. the sides. That is all he said. As far as Divynicel it cannot be used for the speeds you want to reach as he points out in one of his posts. Please read his latest 2 posts above before responding. You are reading things into what we are saying that you want to hear that just are not true. You obviously did not read them.

If you want a boat that will handle a 250HP motor took at the Maangusta 20, Lee down in Australia modified it into one fine fishing machine. He stretched it 10% viewtopic.php?f=12&t=37727

Tom

[ProfzrX]

ProfrsX Why do you keep insisting on a 250HP motor, are you build this for bass tournaments? Jacques just said he would give you the laminating schedule for a 125HP but not for a 250HP motor. Like I posted above a 250HP will give you speeds around 70mph, speeds that Jacques does not design his boats for as he does not want to take the liability for. If you want to add extra glass to the outer and inner hull and beef up the transom, that is your choice and your responsibility and your liability.

Did I miss a follow-up response with him stating this? As a matter of fact, he stated the complete opposite. To include two alternative lamination schedules that he claimed he would send. He only stated that it would not be possible to use divinycell foam core from the chines to the keel and that he would likely put in a disclaimer. No, I will not be fishing bass tournaments, I like to challenge myself lol. I will be fishing inshore tournaments and know what kind of performance I need out of a boat.

Yes you messed up he is only giving you a 1. laminating schedule for the bottom and 2. the sides. That is all he said. As far as Divynicel it cannot be used for the speeds you want to reach as he points out in one of his posts. Please read his latest posts before responding. You are reading things into what we are saying that you want to hear that just are not true.
If you want a boat that will handle a 250HP motor took at the Maangusta 20, Lee down in Australia modified it into one fine fishing machine. He stretched it 10% tp 22' viewtopic.php?f=12&t=37727

Tom

He gave two separate recommendations on how to achieve the HP I am wanting. One with a more durable foam core and the other "you will plank with a sheet of heavy glass laminate: just like you would do with a plywood bottom. You could even use vinylester". I am not "reading things the way I want to hear them" I'm actually quoting his words. If I wanted the manngusta 20 then I'd of purchaused those plans. Tom, you have ZERO knowledge of conversations that took place with BBC prior to my decision on building this boat. Unless you will be the one designing the changes needed for what I was told I could accomplish with this build with the materials that I wanted to use, then your opinion is not needed.





































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[TomW1]

Well I am listening to what Jacques is saying and what he and I have talked about before. He and I have the same amount of courses at the Westlawn School of Yacht Design and can relate to each other though he has the practical experience of designing at Pursuit and Cigarette and here. He told you he will give you the laminations for a 125HP motor and NOT for a 250HP motor. Why can't you get that through your thick head and stop asking him to? People have put a 150HP motor on the PH22 with no problems. Do not over power Jacques boats, they are designed to do what they are designed to do. They are lighter and require less HP for the speeds they attain. Look Jacques philosophy is basically to design boats for home builders that are safe and easily built and long lasting, not high speed specialty boats. He wants to sell plans that will sell.to those most likely to buy them. As I told you before if you want to put a 250HP on the PH22 it is on you, determine what foam you need and what the fiberglass layups you need. I would start with what Jacques gives you and go from there, check with BBC for a better bottom foam, and see if Reid can give you any indication on layup.

Tom

[Matt Gent]

Well I am listening to what Jacques is saying and what he and I have talked about before. He and I have the same amount of courses at the Westlawn School of Yacht Design and can relate to each other though he has the practical experience of designing at Pursuit and Cigarette and here.
…
Why can't you get that through your thick head and stop asking him to?

Tom

This shit just needs to stop. Nobody gives a crap what correspondence courses you’ve taken.

Nobody appointed you deputy here, and Jacques certainly doesn’t need your help.

Your pompous attitude doesn’t fit in with the ethic of this community.

[jonnymac]

I think this conversation needs to be a phone call to solve what can and won’t be provided. this is basically a custom job, and a couple comments aren’t going to get a safe boat built.

Objectively, i read that he would provide an alternate keel method that would support a 250hp and then later that he wouldn’t just one for up to 150 hp.

Either way, clearly not going to be resolved here.

Also, it is confusing sometimes when people jump in for Jacques the conversation gets muddled as far as what Jacques is actually recommending or agreeing with. I get it he is busy, and I get that Jacques wants some of these questions answered here, so the private emails are managable. but when it is a clear design question that leads to a deliverable, best to keep the personal opinions out so the best answer can be provided.

[BarraMan]

An interesting thread, that took a sudden nose dive - perhaps not unlike a PH22 doing 70 mph!
I have mates who drive boats that they claim will do 100 mph. Interesting when they fish in a area with a 50 mph speed limit - and a healthy crocodile population. They do look cool throwing a big rooster tail - but obviously have bigger 'coconuts' than I do!

I see I get a mention above!

If you want a boat that will handle a 250HP motor took at the Mangusta 20, Lee down in Australia modified it into one fine fishing machine. He stretched it 10% viewtopic.php?f=12&t=37727

Yes, I have a Yammie 250 vmax SHO on my Mangusta hull stretched to 22' - and I have run it at 60 mph on smooth water, although its set up for power rather than speed. It will do that quite comfortably but I rarely run it above 35 mph - OK, maybe an occasional 50 mph if someone who thinks they have a faster fishing boat tries to pass me!

After lots of experience with my boat I would be quite happy to put 300 hp on it, but I would have to put it through the test that Jacques refers to, in order for it to be legal!

[OneWayTraffic]

Hi Steve. Stuart from NZ. I posted in here before.

In my experience Jacques is conservative with his designs. Like all good engineers he factors in a margin of safety. For home built boats this tends to be especially wide as there is large variance of quality from builder to builder and boat to boat. Keep in mind that he is semi retired, and often details get lost in translation.

Frankly I think that it's nuts putting a 250hp on a PH22, but that's your lookout not mine. I really look forward to seeing the results so hope that you continue to post here. It might help if you give the designer an indication of the speeds you were hoping to reach, and the conditions in which you are taking it. Are we talking full speed in flat water only, or will there be waves? Will you slow down in them?

If this were my boat I'd take the advice to build the bottom single skin seriously. You would still need the foam to make the shape, so it's not a total loss. Better to find out now than after you've got it in the water.

I also think that a phone call would help.

Don't take my nuts comment too personally, nothing would ever get done without the crazy people pushing the envelope.

Edit: Of course I'm a kiwi, we only went to outboards after we ran out of sheep.

[TomW1]

Hi Steve Tomw here hope there are no hard feelings. Though some think I made a comment I should not have, if so I am sorry. If you want to put a 250HP on the PH22 lets point you in the right direction. 1. When you add power and speed the forces on the bottom go up by an exponential factor. By the time you get to 70 the forces on the hull are about 4x the amount they are at 45mph. 2. What does that mean? We need to double the amount of frames to support the bottom and we need to strengthen the bottom. This will be in two steps, first using 3/8" plywood and they 17oz biax fiberglass, outside and inside. If you use Okume this will probably add only 150lbs to the weight of the boat. 2. Now I can't tell you how many layers of 17oz to lay that is not my expertise. Or how to lay them. But the rest is solid design information to strengthen your boat for your 250HP.

I really don't want you to put that 250HP on the PH22 as currently designed and have it come apart at the first big wave you hit. That is what I have been trying to say all along it is not just a simple step of adding glass but of adding structure and reinforcing the bottom and adding glass.

I had time today to think about it more and this is what I came up with.

Well good luck and fast boats.

Tom